Precision Loads .223 then...

[ivanpros]

So here is what I have done so far-


Lapua Brass
Case trimmed wth Sinclair Neck trimmer 1.750
Flash hole deburred with K&M tool
Primer pocket trimmed using K&M tool
Neck turned to .012 +-.0005- using K&M tool
1.990 (.002 off the lands) Seated 77 gn Sierra Match King bullet using RCBS competition Seating die (Lands measurement taken using Hornady tool-1.992 to the lands)
Tried Remington Benchrest 7 1/2 & CCI BR-4 Primers
Tried Hodgdons Bechmark, Reload 15, 8208 XBR


Rifle
Savage 11 .223 replaced barrel with Shilen .223 Wylde barrel and replaced stock with Choate tactical stock.
Shilen Barrel Savage 110 Series Small Shank 223 Remington (Wylde) Varmint Contour 1 in 8" Twist 26" Stainless Steel


My goal is to consistently get below standard deviation of 10, but have not reached it. I have checked by weight and volume and I have yet to see a correlation. I have also checked for run out (using Hornady Concentricity gauge) and it is below .001

What else can I do?
Is a there a trick of the trade for precision loads?
I know someone will say Muzzle velocity does not matter, but I like to tinker and would like to master the practice of reducing this variable to below standard deviation of 10.

Range data form 8/2/15- 5 shot groups with approximately 10 minutes cool off between shots (with a few exceptions)
*1st shot is cold bore


No.
Muzzel V.
Amb. Temp
Time

avg
stdev


1
*2812
80.9
9:31 AM





2
2867







3
2879







4
2879







5
2892

9:37 AM

2866
31


6
2898
76.8
9:48 AM





7
2867







8
2886







9
2861







10
2855
76.6
9:54 AM

2873
18


11
2892







12
2879







13
2898







14
2867







15
2886



2884
12


16
2886
76.2
10:13 AM





17
2886







18
2861







19
2855







20
2886
76.6
10:17 AM

2875
15


21
2867

10:18 AM





22
2898







23
2861







24
2904







25
2861



2878
21


26
2917







27
2861







28
2873







29
2855







30
2904



2882
27


31
2849







32
2898







33
2898







34
2892



2888
22

[GaCop]

What is the target telling you? You can go crazy chasing low ES. Many times I've found that loads with higher SD/ES print better groups at longer range than the quest your "shooting" for. I test all my 223 loads at 200 yards initially and retest at 300 to get a good idea if the load is going to be consistently accurate.

[LongRange]

i dont shoot a 223 but have several questions for you....

how much neck tension are you using?
at .002 off the lands are you measuring EVERY round? are all your measurements off the Ogive? or COAL?
what tool are you using to seat your primers? do you seat your primers with a light seat or really sink them in?
are you full length resizing every time or neck sizing? if neck sizing are you using a bushing die? if using a bushing die have you checked for doughnuts?
you say you have checked weight and volume...does this mean you have weighed your cases with H2O?
stupid question here....im guessing you chamfer inside/outside necks after trimming? do you trim necks every time?
do you tumble your brass every time?
since the barrel was new have you re-checked your bullet to land measurements?
did the data above start with a CLEAN bore or fouled bore?
and last is the data above with different powders/primers or was that all the same load? and what are you using to weigh your charges?

[ivanpros]

What is the target telling you? You can go crazy chasing low ES. Many times I've found that loads with higher SD/ES print better groups at longer range than the quest your "shooting" for. I test all my 223 loads at 200 yards initially and retest at 300 to get a good idea if the load is going to be consistently accurate.

I like to tinker and would like to master the practice of reducing this variable to below standard deviation of 10. So I take it what you are telling me is that it is not possible?

[ivanpros]

i dont shoot a 223 but have several questions for you....

how much neck tension are you using?
.046 neck sized. .048 with the bullet seated (.002)
at .002 off the lands are you measuring EVERY round? are all your measurements off the Ogive? or COAL?
measuring every round to the ogive and are all consistently 1.990
what tool are you using to seat your primers? do you seat your primers with a light seat or really sink them in?
Using RCBS hand held primer. I can feel if it is too tight or too loose. I also check it with a bullet gauge to make sure it does not come up.
are you full length resizing every time or neck sizing? if neck sizing are you using a bushing die? if using a bushing die have you checked for doughnuts?
Neck sizing. the cartridges are fire formed already. No donuts, since I only had to remove minimal at this time.
you say you have checked weight and volume...does this mean you have weighed your cases with H2O?
Yes, water.
stupid question here....im guessing you chamfer inside/outside necks after trimming? do you trim necks every time?
Yes
do you tumble your brass every time?
Yes, walnut/corn mix
since the barrel was new have you re-checked your bullet to land measurements?
I have about 500 shots through it already and just took the measurements in the last 100 shots
did the data above start with a CLEAN bore or fouled bore?
Data started with clean bore. Good point, every time I go to the range I start with a clean bore
and last is the data above with different powders/primers or was that all the same load? and what are you using to weigh your charges?
This was the last loads with RX15 24.5 gn/Winchester 7 1/2, but I have had almost exactly the same results for all combinations 10-30 standard deviation

Thank you for all the good questions. I think you brought up a good point. If you look at the data it starts open and closes for shot 15-25. I will need to investigate this. a day at the range on 7/26 gave me low number for shot 1-5 and 31-40.

Only other thing I can think is the competition chronograph, but I used black foam board on the sides and it stopped giving me errors since.

[ivanpros]

Here is data using 69 gn SMK



No.
Muzzel V.
Amb. Temp
Time
avg
stdev


1
2772
71
9:24 AM




2
2830






3
2842






4
2818






5
2824


2829
10


6
2836






7
2812






8
2830






9
2836






10
2855


2834
15


11
2855
72.3
10:13 AM




12
2818






13
2836






14
2818






15
2818


2829
16


16
2855
74.4
10:39 AM




17
2849






18
2818






19
2842






20
2849


2843
15


21
2855
75
10:57 AM




22







23
2849






24
2867






25
2824


2849
18


26
2836






27
2861






28
2824






29
2830






30
2830


2836
14


31
2842






32
2849






33
2842






34
2836






35
2855


2845
7


36
2855






37
2842






38
2836






39
2849






40
2842


2845
7


41
2801






42
2849






43
2818






44
2836






45
2824


2826
18

[LongRange]

Thank you for all the good questions. I think you brought up a good point. If you look at the data it starts open and closes for shot 15-25. I will need to investigate this. a day at the range on 7/26 gave me low number for shot 1-5 and 31-40.

Only other thing I can think is the competition chronograph, but I used black foam board on the sides and it stopped giving me errors since.

first off id stop cleaning the barrel...my 6.5mm shilen takes 15 to 20 rounds before it will shoot after cleaning.
second id add more neck tension... .003 .004 and see how your ES's are
third i would full length re-size every time using a forster FL bench rest die...send the die in to forster and have them hone the neck to about .006 under fired neck size and have them make you a few undersized expander balls in .001 increments so you can adjust neck tension....or buy a redding body die and a lee collet die.
forth...and to help you tinker a little more..read this...especially the part about seating primers...to deep or to shallow is not good.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-large-rifle-primer-study.html
fifth id try some remington 7.5 primers...i think i just read some where that most of the high end shooters are using them and the BR-4s...
yes here it is LOL... http://precisionrifleblog.com/2012/07/02/most-accurate-rifle-primers-for-precision-reloading/

change one thing at a time and note if its better or worse and ill bet your ES's improve....and i almost forgot...i have a RCBS primer...i never use it any more...spend the money and buy a good seating tool...it will make a difference ;)

[ivanpros]

The neck is .255 after firing. If it is .006 smaller that will be .249-.224=.025/2=.0125 neck thickness.

I just measured a few neck sized cartridges and they are .2450 / prepared loads are .2465. Looks like I need less neck tension, correct? Ok, now you've done it...uhhhh...lot's more to to obsess about. Thanks!

[LongRange]

If a loaded neck is .246.5 and you go with the forster id have them hone the neck to .240 or .241 and have them make .245,.244,.243,.242 expander balls that will allow you to go as much as .004 or as little as .001 neck tension.

What is your sized neck now before loading?

[ivanpros]

Here are the measurements. .245 neck sized/.246 bullet seated
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Yrs9jWjnb6WVgmRhizeVMPR3ulOvW1eu4xB6xWmytRw=w936-h775-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/V6y3Uout4LU6g-ZnIwOK3Lh-Q9eCQRZAukJMPRA6UJM=w722-h775-no

Do you think this would work (looks like I would need the extra bushings to go down to .240)?-

Forster Precision Plus Bushing Bump Neck Sizer Die with 3 Bushings 223 Remington Bushings included: 0.247", 0.245", 0.243"

http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/841910/forster-precision-plus-bushing-bump-neck-sizer-die-with-3-bushings-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

[Cyclops]

There's a lot more work described here than I've ever considered.

My son's just finished his first full season of FTR shooting using a Savage Model 12 .223 with a 26" 1:7 twist barrel.
Rifle is standard with addition of 20 MOA scope rail, scope and bipod.

We've concentrated on his shooting skills on the range.

I hand load for him with a standard load of 24.7 gr Varget in Norma cases with Winchester small rifle primers and 80 gr A-Max projectiles.
We started with about 400 new cases so most have been used 3 - 4 times in the season.
I've never full length sized these cases, only neck sizing when de-priming. Then ultrasonic cleaning before re-priming and reloading.
Cases haven't been trimmed either.

I concentrate on the loading, using a digital measure and 2nd digital scale accurate to 0.02 gr and checking the OAL of a selection of rounds.

This combination has proven to be competitive mostly against competitors using 308s.

To me this discussion appears to be over thinking the issue and process.

Variables on the day, heat/cold, wind, rain, shooter's state of mind, can have more effect on the shooter's results than an excessive focus on the reloading process.

But what do I know? I'm only a newbie's father who has had time to listen and observe.

[ivanpros]

Hi Cyclops, there are many components to shooting. there is a scientific theory, physics and practical application. You just happen to be looking from a perspective of practical application at this time in your life. It's great that you are working with your son on his first year FTR shooting.

Take a look at this video if you want to have the best loads for your son-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUnrYp0NH38

[LongRange]

There's a lot more work described here than I've ever considered.

My son's just finished his first full season of FTR shooting using a Savage Model 12 .223 with a 26" 1:7 twist barrel.
Rifle is standard with addition of 20 MOA scope rail, scope and bipod.

We've concentrated on his shooting skills on the range.

I hand load for him with a standard load of 24.7 gr Varget in Norma cases with Winchester small rifle primers and 80 gr A-Max projectiles.
We started with about 400 new cases so most have been used 3 - 4 times in the season.
I've never full length sized these cases, only neck sizing when de-priming. Then ultrasonic cleaning before re-priming and reloading.
Cases haven't been trimmed either.

I concentrate on the loading, using a digital measure and 2nd digital scale accurate to 0.02 gr and checking the OAL of a selection of rounds.

This combination has proven to be competitive mostly against competitors using 308s.

To me this discussion appears to be over thinking the issue and process.

Variables on the day, heat/cold, wind, rain, shooter's state of mind, can have more effect on the shooter's results than an excessive focus on the reloading process.

But what do I know? I'm only a newbie's father who has had time to listen and observe.

you can look at it as over thinking or you can look at it as taking all the variables out of your ammo as possible...i agree that trigger time is important but so is load development and case prep...if your son continues his pursuit of FTR and you continue to load for him you will at some point figure out just how important all of this is and will have to do it(or at least some of it)to stay competitive.
do i need to do ALL of the case prep i do?? the answer is NO...not for the type of shooting i do...but at the end of the day im not wondering why i shot a bad score.


Hi Cyclops, there are many components to shooting. there is a scientific theory, physics and practical application. You just happen to be looking from a perspective of practical application at this time in your life. It's great that you are working with your son on his first year FTR shooting.

Take a look at this video if you want to have the best loads for your son-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUnrYp0NH38

yes that will work but personally i dont care for the bushing dies....this is the die i was referring to...if you look around you can find just the sizing die...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/184923/forster-bench-rest-2-die-set-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

or this is a less expensive way of doing the same thing....

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/401556/redding-body-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/215819/lee-collet-neck-sizer-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding


and yes you need MORE neck tension try .003 to start and dont clean your barrel or change any thing else and i bet your ES's and SD's drop.
(http://www.midwayusa.com/product/215819/lee-collet-neck-sizer-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding)

[Texas10]

Ivanpros,

I don't know if this will help you, but it sure piqued my interest in what is possible in precision shooting. Back in the 70's a wealthy Texan by the name of Virgil King built a 300+ yard long warehouse and in the evenings and weekends he used it as a shooting laboratory to develop techniques for precision shooting. He was just a gun hobbyist, not a competitive shooter but he routinely put 5 shot groups that measured in the zeros in his "lab".
A publication of his work was eventually made in Precision Shooting Magazine (now gone) but can still be found on line.

Here's a link I found where you can download the full text. Pretty amazing article.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/10/18/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-lessons-in-extreme-rifle-accuracy/

[Robinhood]

I think you are pushing the 77's too hard. 2600 fps or less should be magic .

[ivanpros]

I think you are pushing the 77's too hard. 2600 fps or less should be magic .

Robinhood, you are absolutely right! went to the range today and had a the firing pin go right through the primer (cratering visible)r- Remington benchrest 7 1/2. Interesting that the CCI BR-4's had no prolem at all. I will definitely take it back to 23 gn. and start working loads again- with the 7 1/2s. by the way, I checked the firing pin protusion and it is at .050.

[ivanpros]

you can look at it as over thinking or you can look at it as taking all the variables out of your ammo as possible...i agree that trigger time is important but so is load development and case prep...if your son continues his pursuit of FTR and you continue to load for him you will at some point figure out just how important all of this is and will have to do it(or at least some of it)to stay competitive.
do i need to do ALL of the case prep i do?? the answer is NO...not for the type of shooting i do...but at the end of the day im not wondering why i shot a bad score.



yes that will work but personally i dont care for the bushing dies....this is the die i was referring to...if you look around you can find just the sizing die...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/184923/forster-bench-rest-2-die-set-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

or this is a less expensive way of doing the same thing....

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/401556/redding-body-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/215819/lee-collet-neck-sizer-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding


and yes you need MORE neck tension try .003 to start and dont clean your barrel or change any thing else and i bet your ES's and SD's drop.
(http://www.midwayusa.com/product/215819/lee-collet-neck-sizer-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding)

Thanks! I am looking through the options to decide.

[LongRange]

Robinhood, you are absolutely right! went to the range today and had a the firing pin go right through the primer (cratering visible)r- Remington benchrest 7 1/2. Interesting that the CCI BR-4's had no prolem at all. I will definitely take it back to 23 gn. and start working loads again- with the 7 1/2s. by the way, I checked the firing pin protusion and it is at .050.


I try to keep mine anout .035...the CCI primers have a harder cup...i think the rems are about the softest.

[ivanpros]

I try to keep mine anout .035...the CCI primers have a harder cup...i think the rems are about the softest.

I have the new firing pin configuration (edge/axis) and from what I can tell it cannot be adjusted like the old ones. I am planning on calling Savage tomorrow and asking them for some advice.

[ivanpros]

you can look at it as over thinking or you can look at it as taking all the variables out of your ammo as possible...i agree that trigger time is important but so is load development and case prep...if your son continues his pursuit of FTR and you continue to load for him you will at some point figure out just how important all of this is and will have to do it(or at least some of it)to stay competitive.
do i need to do ALL of the case prep i do?? the answer is NO...not for the type of shooting i do...but at the end of the day im not wondering why i shot a bad score.



yes that will work but personally i dont care for the bushing dies....this is the die i was referring to...if you look around you can find just the sizing die...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/184923/forster-bench-rest-2-die-set-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

or this is a less expensive way of doing the same thing....

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/401556/redding-body-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/215819/lee-collet-neck-sizer-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding


and yes you need MORE neck tension try .003 to start and dont clean your barrel or change any thing else and i bet your ES's and SD's drop.
(http://www.midwayusa.com/product/215819/lee-collet-neck-sizer-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding)

ok, so here is my plan, I will order the set of forster dies and the Lee Collet neck sizing die. Now I understand why you suggested the full length sizing die- reduction of runout.

In the meantime, until those arrive, I am going to Harbor Freight to buy a honing stone so I can hone (reduce) the expander ball by .002 on my RCBS competition die- without the expander ball it sizes the neck down to .241. I should be able to size down to .243 and at least give an indication if the ES SD goes down. I understand there will be runout, but it's a good start.