Precision Loads .223 then...

[LongRange]

ok, so here is my plan, I will order the set of forster dies and the Lee Collet neck sizing die. Now I understand why you suggested the full length sizing die- reduction of runout.

In the meantime, until those arrive, I am going to Harbor Freight to buy a honing stone so I can hone (reduce) the expander ball by .002 on my RCBS competition die- without the expander ball it sizes the neck down to .241. I should be able to size down to .243 and at least give an indication if the ES SD goes down. I understand there will be runout, but it's a good start.

DONT use or buy a stone....get some 320-400 and 2000-2500 grit wet and dry sand paper...chuck you expander ball mandrel with the ball on it in a drill spin it slow with the 320-400 and check it often with your calipers when your with in .0005 or so of your desired measurement switch the the 2000-2500 grit to polish it up.

[ivanpros]

DONT use or buy a stone....get some 320-400 and 2000-2500 grit wet and dry sand paper...chuck you expander ball mandrel with the ball on it in a drill spin it slow with the 320-400 and check it often with your calipers when your with in .0005 or so of your desired measurement switch the the 2000-2500 grit to polish it up.

Wow, that was easy. I used 320, 800 and 2000 and it worked like a charm. OEM expander ball was .221 and after sanding got it to .219. Resized some brass and it is now .243. This all took less than 10 minutes.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Z1spgROdzwfCbe9eNo8JvLf6ukyQpqoYzoeRLN26jmo=w685-h775-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wMBPli-TW7rsOmQ3C_mzD_Cxu-e9LiUKgGSeZath3To=w637-h775-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/McLmjDMfeJ0TEih-aVpH_XckYRtr2kUTQRguYlitY6I=w626-h775-no

[LongRange]

and i bet that the sizing is a lot smoother now as well?

let us know how everything works out with a more neck tension.

[ivanpros]

Ok, here are the results. LongRange, thank you very much for getting me moving in the right direction again. I have finally made some headway. Overall not great yet, but the standard deviations have dropped significantly. The groups have also tightened up. I rezised the neck with expander ball to .243 & removed the expander ball/ pin assembly to resize to .241.

Some assumption I have:

-The ogive OAL of 1.990 is still touching the lands on some of the shots and are the higher MV numbers. If I dial this in to the correct distance it should help reduce the Extreme spread. I plan on testing 1.980, 1.970,1.960 (I will need to order the Forster seating Die to get a more reliable tool than the RCBS competition die for seating to .001)
-Some of the shot group variation could be from changing alignment on the chronograph and the action heating up (surface temperature)
- It could also be the cartridge is tight. I will use full resizing die. Is there a reason why it is better to full size instead of bump the head and re-size the neck?

Once I get these under control I will go back and experiment with the powder in the 2,600 fps range. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5AlJH5C7kE-39-Ik7n0YLlGVX0gUdNmmuHeaap5AMvU=w1337-h1033-no

[ivanpros]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OhJHqsAE7xFDCEENfE7KfO9fo4tEuEjx7pzFVWNnyP4=w1337-h1033-no

[LongRange]

Your on the right track...first RL-15 is a double base powder and temp sensitive so that may be part of the ES's but if you look at your 5 shot averages they are not to bad and have improved.
Second giving the bullets more of a jump should help both es and groups.
As for full length sizing....i use to neck size only and had consistency issues...at some point you have to FL size your brass so why not elemanate that issue now and just FL size every time...set your die up to just bump the shoulder back .002 or so and your good....i FL size every time but my fired brass is 1.622.5 and my die is set to size at 1.622 to 1.623...ive found that tight fitting brass shoots more consistent ESs and shot to shot on target.

The biggest key to this is consistency and to only change one thing at a time....i could of saved thousands of dollars if i knew then what i know now and one thing i can tell you is to buy the best tools you can...a lot of ppl disagree with this and thats fine as different ppl have different views on whats accurate...as far as your seating die goes i dont know ive never owned an rcbs die but some of your seating depth differences may be in your press...your seating pressure on the handle and differences in bullets,neck tension ect all things youll learn....another tip...document EVERYTHING you do until your comfortable and have found your grove.

[ivanpros]

ok, here are the results using IMR XBR 8208. Headspace was 1.457 (max is 1.459).

Next steps:

-OGIVE 1.986, 1.984, 1.982
-Still debating to buy the Redding dies or the Forster? Any comments, suggestions? I need to make sure it can size the neck down to .241 (I am currently using RCBS without the expander ball)


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yEShXGVthirhu_wRBdQ4XCT2kttIAvYjbLz2vQKZ_ro=w643-h480-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IeCFDK_I2L5MP8iecJxCralInB6bi2TWFuPfgZZzh08=w520-h478-no

[homefrontsniper]

Hmm my CLE AR 24" kreiger shoots .6 @ 200 yards with 23.5 varget 77smk @ 2750 m.v.
FGMM IS 2720 m.v.

[LongRange]

both are good dies but i like the forster a little more. as far as your seating depth goes(if you havent found a good depth yet)make bigger jumps like .010 and when you hit the best group then fine tune it...i dont shoot a 223 but sierra bullets are not real temperamentally to seating depth like a berger.
as far as you ESs go those are very nice....ultimately you would like to be in the single digits but ill tell you thats tough to do and keep consistent...if your in the teens to low 20s consistently thats good...look more at your SDs instead of you ESs...how did the first 2 groups shoot?

[ivanpros]

100 yards. Anything over .500 was my limitations (2 cups of coffee, slight breeze on and off, glasses fogging up...on and on and on). .403 was seated at 1.988

.403
.922
.617
.537


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3jDT8eIYBlWguBNdJcy34kWsPuBz9nVkGVZpHBzWyxk=s775-no

[JTCrl]

Interesting topic. I've incorporated some velocity spread testing in my load development also but, since I seldom shoot past 200 yards, it's more to satisfy my curiosity than an actual goal. I have found that when a node in a ladder test correlates to a tight ES/SD I've likely found a load I can work with.

I've used the Lee collet die for cast bullets in a 30-06 for the past year. Shooting such light loads full length re-sizing has been unnecessary. I did sand/polish it to achieve a .006 neck tension, probably more than I would care for with a jacketed bullet. I'm very tempted (especially considering the price) to try one for the 223. Not needing to lube the cases is a real time saver as is the ability to achieve uniform neck tension without turning the necks as is required with a bushing die. Some folks do suggest that the moving parts of the collet die be should polished and I have found it helpful to clean/lubricate it every 100 rounds or so..

[LongRange]

100 yards. Anything over .500 was my limitations (2 cups of coffee, slight breeze on and off, glasses fogging up...on and on and on). .403 was seated at 1.988

.403
.922
.617
.537


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3jDT8eIYBlWguBNdJcy34kWsPuBz9nVkGVZpHBzWyxk=s775-no

top right looks like the best group...id try the same seating depth and + - .1 .2 grains then try a different primer.


Interesting topic. I've incorporated some velocity spread testing in my load development also but, since I seldom shoot past 200 yards, it's more to satisfy my curiosity than an actual goal. I have found that when a node in a ladder test correlates to a tight ES/SD I've likely found a load I can work with.

I've used the Lee collet die for cast bullets in a 30-06 for the past year. Shooting such light loads full length re-sizing has been unnecessary. I did sand/polish it to achieve a .006 neck tension, probably more than I would care for with a jacketed bullet. I'm very tempted (especially considering the price) to try one for the 223. Not needing to lube the cases is a real time saver as is the ability to achieve uniform neck tension without turning the necks as is required with a bushing die. Some folks do suggest that the moving parts of the collet die be should polished and I have found it helpful to clean/lubricate it every 100 rounds or so..

also a good tip is to turn the collet from the bottom of the die 1/8th to a 1/4 turn every 5 or ten rounds to keep the parts from warring a same contact grove in them.

[Ranger3]

I have found a couple of loads that have shot well in several different rifles. 26 gr. Varget with 55 nosler BT, or 55 VMAX, or 69 SMK. All three of these loads shoot well in 4 different rifles. The other load is 24.3 gr. Varget with either 75 or 80 AMAX or 80 Bergers. Someone I have shot with has shot this load with 80 gr. Bergers at 1K on a light wind day and it's amazing. I have used Benchmark but can't get the groups I get from Varget. All these loads are with unaltered factory Brass, generally Winchester. Primers are all CCI 450 on these loads. Just find your seating depth.

[GaCop]

I like to tinker and would like to master the practice of reducing this variable to below standard deviation of 10. So I take it what you are telling me is that it is not possible? I'm not telling you not to strive for the lowest ES/SD, I'm just saying I've found that the lowest ES/SD doesn't necessarily mean pinpoint accuracy at long range. To me, what the bullet does on target is more important.

[Ranger3]

IMO lowest ES/SD is really only applicable when going past 500 yds. prior to that where they land on the target is more criticial. If you are a 1K shooter, you need the lowest ES/SD due to the amount of drop at that range. Can you have a low ES/SD and yet not the most accurate load at under 500 yds, yes you can.