Boyd's Pro Varmint Need Advice on Installing Pillars

[milleniumdude1999]

Second post folks, so be gentle. I have studied a lot of responses from the generous folks here, sharing their experiences regarding the front pillar area cracking on Boyd's Pro Varmint stocks and I share everyone's concerns. My new Pro Varmint just showed up and on inspection I found a few things I would like to share and here the ask for the group's advice regarding my interpretation of issues I think I see. I find the front pillar the most challenging. I think there is a design flaw in the Boyd's product. I compared my factory Tupperware stock off my 11 trophy hunter to the Boyd's Pro Varmint. Please review my pictures and I will comment below them.


http://s17.postimg.org/bjgeyff7j/pillars.gif

Here is my finding:

The Savage plastic stock has a tapered area where the bottom metal feeder ramp goes. There is more material here, thus it is less prone to falling apart when drilled for pillars.

I removed the metal pillars in my plastic stock by drifting them out. It was really easy to do and I do not see a reason not to reuse them. Is there a problem with this? bI They are the perfect height for the Boyd's stock. I measured them and they require a 27/64 drill bit hole. This will leave very little material where the arrow above is pointing. What do you guys think?

I was thinking that if there is tear-rout and I can't keep the concentric circle of the hole (half moon) I might use my dremmel to push some holes in the back and anchor some JB weld in some pockets, acting as anchors.

It looks like Boyd's is avoiding a manual process at this location, that's why they CNC this straight. However, it is obvious, that Savage has a manual process to remove some material and make things fit, as demonstrated by the roughness of areas where things are removed. It is definitely not part of the molding process.

Honestly, this is a design flaw that arose from cost savings attempts. Personally, I would gladly pay a few more bucks for a better engineered product. The other option is to not inlet this area at all and have the customer fit it.


The other option is not make these pillars so big around. What do you guys do, just drill it and JB weld it in place, the best you can and hope it holds?

Frankly, savage could improve the action screw spacing here, but I do not see their plastic stocks breaking here ever. I just do not understand why Boyd's makes this area so flimsy.

Thanks for the replies and advice!

The Dude Abides

[foxx]

It is what it is. Extraordinarily inexpensive. Consider it a good start to a decent semi custom build. Requires a bit of work on your part to make it strong enough for pillars and bedding. They are not going to change, if they do, they will be pricing themselves out of their niche market. $99 for any new laminate wood stock is a steal. Make it work or sell it and go to a quality smith like Sharp Shooter Supply for a true, high quality piece.

[milleniumdude1999]

Foxx, I hear your opinion, but don't hear any answers. It's a simple manufacturing problem to solve and the reality is that it would not cost that much to fix. I considered the $99 price point, but ordered upgrades as most do. $99 is a starting point. If you have a real answer to the problem I am anxious to hear it. Look at what savage did and the price point they offered. American companies need to get smarter and more competitive with regarded to automated and semi automated manufacturing. I fail to see anything helpful in your comment. Boyd's makes stuff for lots of manufacturers and I am sure there are a lot of rejects, based on experience in manufacturing globally. Frankly, Boyd's can learn from this post and get better.

Your answer, spend more and buy from someone else, or deal with it yourself. So why did you comment, other than start a flame war? I am hear to share information and to learn, not to badger people.

[foxx]

Hey, Mill, I apologize. I meant no disrespect toward you or your opinion.

Boyds gets beat up here quite a bit for this problem. They are aware of the complaints. There might be an inexpensive "fix" to the "problem" that an ingenuitive mind can solve, I don't know.

I said what I said because it is a subject that has been covered here many times and I believe the solution is exactly what I said. Quality stocks cost a lot of money because they require skilled craftsman to build, and the process is very time consuming. Boyds has put a world of hurt on a lot of traditional gunsmiths and stock makers who produce quality products worthy of their relatively high price but beyond the reach of what many sportsmen are willing to spend. Gun stocks appear to be nothing more than a hunk of wood sanded smooth and nicely finished but grossly overpriced. Well, sometimes appearances can be misleading. Perhaps the quality pieces produced by companies such as Sharp Shooter Supply are, indeed, worthy of their price.

Too often, I think, people here say they would "gladly pay more for a better product" . Obviously they mean they would gladly pay a LITTLE more for a better product. I am simply countering that sentiment with my own, which is "I am happy with the product, I can make the necessary changes myself, please don't raise your prices..."

The REASON is say that is, even if they improve/strengthen the product, I am still going to want to bed and pillar it... When I do that, I will correct the problem. I don't want them to charge me even $20 to fix what I can fix myself when bedding and pillaring. I see it as an unfinished product that I am glad is made available to me and an affordable price.

Anyhow, welcome to the forum. Didn't mean to flame you. Really.

[jpdown]

I just finished pillar and glass bedding a Boyd's Pro Varmint stock. Seems you can't hardly give away a Savage tupperware stock these days. So I salvaged the pillars. I messed up and tried to use a drill bit to open up the stock holes. Ended up cracking large pieces of laminate out of the stock inlet. Nothing that I could not fix with Devcon plastic steel epoxy and time. I should have used a dremel tool and small router or sanding wheel to open up the stock holes for pillars. Lesson learned. I fill all visible cracks or voids in the laminate with Devcon clear epoxy. You might as well epoxy bed the rear trigger guard screw hole, or it will split out if the screw is tightened too much. Dirty sand and finish these small areas and the barrel channel with Tru-Oil Gunstock finish. If you want a solid color finish, I would use three coats of Duracoat as the base finish. The stuff is tough. Then you can sponge camo or use webbing paint on top the duracoat base. When you get tired of that look, you can strip off everything but the duracoat with acetone and start again.

[DrThunder88]

If I'm being honest, I was pretty steamed when I found out Boyds had switched to a plastic ferrule or escutcheon on their Axis stocks after they had started using plastic trigger guards instead of steel. In fact I even started a thread about the perceived cheapening of the product. Still, it was pointed out that they were and are still a good value. Even with the extra parts and effort required, it's a chunk of wood that I can't make at home and I'm still pretty willing to buy it. In fact the only other option at the time, SSS Axis stocks, were pillared but not bedded, didn't include a recoil lug, and would still need to be finished. Of course, Boyds charges more for an unfinished stock, so maybe that's a luxury feature. Either way, I'm a tinkerer, not a wood finisher.

Nowadays I'm more in tune with foxx's thinking on the matter. It's the McDonald's of stocks: cheap, available pretty quickly, and ultimately fulfilling a need but perhaps not totally satisfyingly. I'm not going to show off my Boyds stocks for what they are; I'm going to show them off for what I can do with them. Compare this to having the aforementioned SSS stock, where just having an SSS stock made by Fred Moreno himself would send any Savage-savvy shooter swooning. People would look at me askance if I claimed to have modded the thing beyond the necessary sweat equity. "What's that? You coated it with some sort of finish and put on a few metal bits, one I can't even see? Ho-hum. Tell me more about your transaction with Fred Moreno! *faints*"

Now the flip side to the "gladly pay a little more for a better product"-prospect is the "I'd take a little less for the same price"-prospect. The acceptable increase in price is, I wager, just as infinitesimal as the acceptable decrease in quality. "How much would you pay for all the features you want?" is balanced with "How many features could be stripped out before the price is too much?"

[FW Conch]

Stocky's has basically the same thing, with the same issues, "on sale" right now for $100 more than the Boyd's. And Boyd's offers many more options that Stocky's doesn't. Not nocking anyone's product, but I have both, and I'll go with the Boyd's, save the $100 and make it work. +1 with the guys above ^

JMHO ... Jim :-)

[kkeene]

With pillars installed and the action bedded with Devcon or similar, there will be plenty of strength. Just go slow and preserve as much ligament as you can, then install the pillars, bed, and don't sweat it.

PS - This is from an engineer that designs and repairs airframes for fighter aircraft... In this case you are dealing with compression loads in the pillar / bedding from torquing the action screws. The action screws are supposed to be clearance (not touching the inside of the pillars). All of the fore / aft load from recoil is supposed to come out at the recoil lug. You have plenty of strength.

Keith

[milleniumdude1999]

Hey guys, I am not beating up Boyd's. I am pointing out a design flaw that can be corrected very simply.

Keith, I hear your perspective and agree. Thank you for the comment! FYI, I have 20+ years in manufacturing too. I have ordered many a mold in my day and I am familiar with CNC etc.. I am a product manager for custom OEM/ODM high tech manufacturing, so I am an expert at analyzing cost to produce and trade offs. Many of my customers are aerospace companies. Six-Sigma Black Belt, but ask me if I like the Sigma program; I digress.

I think most of us Savage guys love the challenges of doing things ourselves. This sort of thing is a labor of love and therapy and I appreciate the group being so cool. Fox, you are all right, no worries. I was just looking for opinions on the how too. The Dude has a huge shop, unisaws, multiple router tables, planers. joiners and everything else wood related. I also make furniture as a hobby.

Part of this project is to build a budget rifle for proof of concept. I just founded and optics startup. My company will soon launch a line of rifle scopes, starting with 3x15x50 first focal plane ed glass scopes with side focus, locking turrets, mil dot ret, mil based turrets etc. The price point will be under $400.00 USD. Any doubters and there will be plenty, will be met with pure performance proof. Nothing but the best components in these things. So, I understand Boyd's business model. I do something similar.

So, I am taking a model 11, put on a bull barrel from a friendly customer barrel maker and going Boyd's. We will take it out as far as she can go and show groups, as evidence. Then we will put it up against a high end production rifle. That's the next thread for the Dude. Please note, that I am not advertising.

Anyway. guys thanks for all the awesome input. This is a really cool spot!

Fox, you can call me Dude, El Duderino, Dudemaster, His Dudeness, Dude, just don't call me Mil, lol.

The Dude Abides.

[sixonetonoffun]

I keep hoping an aluminium bedding block option will be offered. Why not the raised comb showed up?

[daddyusmaximus]

My company will soon launch a line of rifle scopes, starting with 3x15x50 first focal plane ed glass scopes with side focus, locking turrets, mil dot ret, mil based turrets etc. The price point will be under $400.00 USD.



Make sure we know when this happens. I love my Boyd's stock, and I'd like to be able to love your scope too.

[milleniumdude1999]

OK, so I got it done. I appreciate all the help from everyone here.

Sorry for the pic quality.

JP, I recycled the pillars from the Tupperware, thanks! I listened to your heart felt advice and went straight to this little brass threaded insert for the rear trigger guard and bedded it too! Awesome advice!

Dadstermax, you too.

This community is a great resource!

Welcome any PMs with questions or comments too, as well as right here in the forum.

I decided to bed a little in front of the recoil lug. I wrapped a lot of blue tape around the nut and planet of release agent. so, technically it is floated here. I just wanted it to be super strong in this area and more JB weld did the trick.

I ended up using the plastic bottom metal from the donor tuppergarbage. I think it works fine. I did need to elongate the trigger guard hole nearest the bolt release button.

The rifle is re-barreled with a skinner gunworks, 25" .308 bull barrel.

I needed to open up the barrel channel for this, so I used the sand paper and socket trick.

Just breaking in the barrel, these are the first 12 rounds through it. These are walked in after bore sighting, #1 being the bore sight. I was running short on time, as the range was going to close soon. No groups, just quick turret adjustments after each shot. Our turrets are well built and have very accurate repeatable tracking. The shooting quality, not really a great shot here, I am trying my best to learn. I over compensated a couple of times, I think you can see where. I was going fast and lost count of clicks, on #5. Also, a guy was asking me a lot of questions about my rig and scope, so I was a little distracted. 7&8 were actually no adjustment.

I don't want to do promo too much here, because I am sure there are rules, but inquiring minds should be able to figure out how to find the scope manufacturer. Google is your friend.

I will post pics of the completed build soon, but this was a proof of concept project. Build a sub MOA long range shooter in .308 for under $1,500, including optics.
Savage 11 Trophy Hunter XP from Buds $549, took off scope and sold for $100, so $449
Boyds Pro varmint $135
Vector optics rings off Ebay $16
Weaver Base $32
Bluecade scope $398.99
barrel $225
JB Weld $15
Brass Insert $5
elbow grease= Free

Total cost of build was $1276, including glass!

Here is a screen shot of the first twelve using our new Bluecade HD scope:

http://s16.postimg.org/g61al55dx/sighting_in.gif

http://s30.postimg.org/grnndekep/pillars_Bed.gif