A thought on vendor problems

[rjtfroggy]

First I agree with Mr. Baker 100%, after being here 6 full years these post get tiring pretty darn fast. I also see the other side having been there done that with different vendors at one time or another,sooooo I have been thinking(usually dangerous ) how about a sub-board for complaints with NO REPLY added in for informational purposes only.
The purpose would be informational only so members especially knew ones can make a some what educational decision on who and/or where to go for parts and repairs, because lets be honest there aren't many Savage smiths out there that really know what they are doing.
This has been discussed in the past and if feasible maybe its time has come. I by no means am a computer programmer and don't pretend to know a whole lot about how they work(hell I can just about figure out how to surf the web) so I don't know if it can even be done, but maybe it will give members a place to vent and maybe just maybe keep the bad mouthing from spreading to other forums across the web about the vendor and this site.
This is just what I was thinking so what do other members think.

[03mossy]

I think your right something needs to be done about these posts that pop up almost weekly. The one downside I see to your plan is you will only get one side of the story. I believe most of these posts are legit and the posters are just trying to get there issues resolved. But I'm sure on a few of them the vendors have there reasons and there side of the story.

[rjtfroggy]

03mossy you are right but if you read the post all the way through the vendors almost never respond so their side is never heard.
I'm sure that the person posting adds just a little fuel out of frustration that is why I suggested a NO REPLY button to keep it civil.

I am also 99% sure Mr. Baker will not agree but it may be worth a shot.

[GaryB]

I think the forum would be better served if it's members just used this service...

http://www.bbb.org/

That's what the BBB does.

[J.Baker]

First, in regards to froggy's suggestion, I appreciate that you want to try to help come up with a solution to the problem, but I have already done that. As mossy pointed out, such a board would only allow the complainant to voice his/her side of the story and embellish it to whatever extent they choose or leave out various information that shows they're in part to blame to make the complaint appear even more egregious. Such a thing would not be fair to the vendors.

As to why vendors don't post on here or any other site defending themselves, the reasoning is two-fold. First, they don't have time as they're busy working. If they tried to frequent all the different places on the internet where a customer might go to bad mouth them every day they'd never get any work done. Secondly, they're business people and know that you don't deal with such things in a public venue. If you have a problem with them they want you to bring it to them directly so they can address and resolve it directly.

Regarding the BBB, they don't do squat. They like to say they're good for the consumer, but they have no means to get results for the consumer and offer no recourse for the vendor. They do nothing to investigate the claim, they just automatically assume the complainant is being 100% honest and forthcoming (which is rarely the case in my experience). Once someone files a complaint with them, it's there forever even if/when the vendor proves through documentation that it's a false and unsubstantiated claim. It's an outdated model from the era of "the customer is always right," but we now live in an era where "sometimes the customer is just an idiot". In the end the BBB gets no results or recourse for the customer and more often than not unjustly defames the character and reputation of the vendor.

It's much better to go through the Attorney Generals office for that very reason. First, the AG has the power to get the vendor to comply with their ruling if they are found to be doing wrong and the AG can file criminal charges if/when they are warranted. Second, they actually investigate the claim and will review supplied documentation from both sides to determine if in fact the claim is legit or if it's unwarranted. Third, they will issue their findings on the matter either ordering the vendor to do something to satisfy the customer or absolving the vendor of the claim in the case.

So in short, neither complaining about it online and filing a complaint with the BBB is going to get you results. If you want results deal directly with the vendor or contact the AG in you or the vendors home state to lodge a complaint.

[rjtfroggy]

Jim I agree with the way you handled this 110% and I fully understand your dilemma with running this site (try supervising 12 fire fighters at a time in one house) nobody is ever going to be happy at the same time.
On the other hand we need a place for remarks good or bad concerning goods and services on our Savages if for nothing else but to let others know how the sale/service went so as to help others make up their own minds on who or what to use. Right now there are 316 guest on the site looking it over and about 100 members and being conservative probably half looking for this type of info some how some one has to provide it. Lets be honest there isn't a lot of places to go for info on a Savage and most other site members send people here.
I know at one time you tried the good/bad guys list but now it is buried in the paid members section and hasn't been used since the site upgrade.
Let me reiterate I agree fully with the way you handled this yesterday it was getting out of hand but we need to find a happy medium for the sake of the site and for members to gather info.
If you want I will continue to give my thoughts per PM.

[yobuck]

Were all grownups here and as such should be able to handle our own private business affairs.

[EFBell]

Were all grownups here and as such should be able to handle our own private business affairs.

Could not agree more!

[rjtfroggy]

I agree but don't you read reviews from customers or recommendation from others when buying something.
All right soap box is being put away.

[yobuck]

I agree but don't you read reviews from customers or recommendation from others when buying something.
All right soap box is being put away.

I do ask questions about things from people i know or consider knowledgable on the subject.
I also spent most of my working life dealing with customers.

[JTCrl]

Other forums where I am a member or moderator have sections devoted to reviews of products and services. The ability to share both the good and the bad experiences we all have is one of the most valuable services any forum can offer.

[J.Baker]

Other forums where I am a member or moderator have sections devoted to reviews of products and services. The ability to share both the good and the bad experiences we all have is one of the most valuable services any forum can offer.

If you hadn't noticed, that's what we were doing - allowing people to share their experience with vendors. We didn't have a dedicated board for it (been there, done that in the past - ended up the same place we are now which is why it no longer exists). The problem is that in many instances when negative feedback is reported it is greatly exaggerated and/or key details are left out on purpose to make said vendor look bad and/or make the customer look as if they are in the right. I'm not saying that's the case with every single one, but it happens often enough that it's one of the major factors in my decision on how to handle this.

Additionally, we seem to have a small group here who feel that it is there responsibility and/or duty to bash certain vendors anytime said vendors name is mentioned. It's like they just sit back and wait for an opportunity to be able to badmouth them like it's their sole mission in life. Their actions naturally cause others to defend the vendor and thus the thread just spirals out of control and we end up having to remove them. This just creates conflict on the site which winds up driving good members away because they don't want to have to deal with the childish drama. Those who have been here a long time know just what I'm talking about as a significant number of very knowledgeable and helpful members no longer frequent this site for that very reason.

I wish we could count on people to be completely honest and forthcoming when posting their feedback with vendors, but it's been proven time and time again on this site over the years that there will always be those who will exaggerate and stretch the truth and it's not fair to the vendors to let such claims and accusations be posted and go uncontested in a read-only board. The internet gives people a sense of anonymity as they hide behind a fictitious username which leads them to believe they can do whatever they want without repercussion. Offering such a read only board as was suggested would just embolden them do to so knowing the person or vendor couldn't publicly counter their claims to clear their name.

[Dennis]

The problem is that in many instances when negative feedback is reported it is greatly exaggerated and/or key details are left out on purpose to make said vendor look bad and/or make the customer look as if they are in the right.

Your `100% correct Jim, it's been proven too many times.

I also agree with one of the above post that this is NOT the area to express your business.

If in fact we have a bad experience here, I think the moderator's should review it and one of them give their assessment of the situation. It's definitely has gotten our of control.

Anyway, I am glad the site is back up, and everyone have a great day.

Dennis

[J.Baker]

Not our job to get involved, even in sales in the classifieds. That's been our position since day 1 of this site. And I to agree with yobuck - it doesn't belong here.