I have questions, maybe you have answers?

[Texas10]

Did some shooting in the rain and wind yesterday and came back with more questions than answers, and I am starting to wonder if reloading if worth the trouble.

I started the day before by cleaning the fouling from my barrel, but not the copper.

Loaded up some 52 grain A-Max over 8208XBR, neck sized brass, sorted by length. Shot 3 round groups into separate targets but started by shooting 3 rounds of off the shelf American Eagle 50g tipped ammo that I use to foul my barrel prior to shooting the new load.

The hand load ammo shot respectably, max group .470 at 100 yds, min group .335. All seated .015 off lands. Pretty consistent.

At the end of my day, I finished off by shooting 3 more rounds of the same American Eagle ammo. The first 3 rounds I shot at the start of the day from a cold, clean barrel grouped at .232 inch. The last 3 with a warm, dirty barrel grouped .180. Oh, and I shot them from the magazine without pause. The all others were shot with cool down time between.

Those American Eagle rounds make a huge jump to the lands. Case is (of course) new, not sized to my chamber. Bullets seated very firm into the case. Velocity is 3240 fps. Powder charge is not very consistent by weight, I've checked.

My cost to load my ammo is pretty close to what I paid for that A. Eagle which cost 50 cents a round, on sale, and it shot better :apologetic:.

Hence, my dilemma. To load, or not to load.

Someone please tell me to keep trying!

[darkker]

Ooofff, you got a mess of demons happening here...
First let's deal with the bit about powder charges.
Pay close attention, because this one never seems to die and really needs to. Weighing powder is a handloader ONLY invention, because of cheap, accurate scales all across the earth since Plato. No major factory loads weight, they load a VOLUME of powder. Bulk density is a constantly shifting number, so the weight will thus, also vary. Extruded powder has its burning rate controlled by geometry, so you are much better suited to load by volume anyway... Just like the factories who pump it a trillion rounds and want them all to work the same.

Next is cleaning. Unless your groups opened up, why did you do it? If they did, you shouldn't have stopped with the carbon.

What you didn't say is in the time you waited between shots, were the rounds cooking in the chamber? Not good fit consistency if they were.
Also comparing rapid fire to slow isn't the same ball if wax. I did this for another forum a couple months back. Took about a 100 rounds and did a rapid fire in groups of 20. That simulated a match, shows the barrel heat and cooking, ad's to short fatigue, etc.
Take 50 rounds of your stuff and 50 of the factory. Sit at the bench and see which set of 50 is larger.

I say never stop, but I don't load because it's "cheaper". I load because of specific components I want.... And I don't trust anyone else:cool:

[Jimeg]

Sounds like you are getting some nice groups with American Eagle. My experience has been just the opposite. My groups are typically two to three times larger with American Eagle vs. my reloads. So, I'll keep reloading. Good luck.

[LongRange]

The first thing id try is seating your bullets deeper...your barrel might like a big jump.

[Rooster 50]

Sounds like you finally got the barrel fouled enough that your American Eagle rounds shot very we.. Try the same drill in reverse and you will get your answer.

darrker basically said the same thing BTW.

[stomp442]

Shoot five shot groups and then see which one shoots best. Sounds to me like you have great groups all the way around and no matter what you do you have an accurate rifle.

[yobuck]

Im holding in my hand a winning lottery ticket i found laying on a floor.
I come here seeking advise as to what i should do.
Im sure there could be quite a few opinions lol.

[kevwil]

It would be interesting to see what would have happened if you shot more handloads after the 2nd string of AE factory ammo. It seems like your barrel was still getting fouled-in.

Take this with a grain of salt, as it's heresay, but I've heard that you need to foul the barrel with the same powder you're measuring results with. It might make a difference if you didn't mix ammo / powders when testing your handloads.

You might end up being better off with factory ammo, but I'd test more first if it were me.

[Rooster 50]

Speaking of taking something with a grain of salt.........REALLY!! fouling the barrel with the same powder is just plain ridiculous.

We have all owned barrels that shot better when fouled. It is not heresay

[Texas10]

I tend to arrive at the range with several loads to shoot, with different bullet mfgs. I have notice, Kevwill, that when changing from one bullet to another that the first few shots aren't quite as accurate and the follow on shots. Maybe it's the shooter, maybe it's because I sometimes start by boresnaking the barrel once before starting the new load, or maybe it's the copper layer changing.

Darkker, you bring up a suggestion about cleaning. I have read much about this and there seems to be many different opinions about when and how to clean. I've bought about half a dozen different cleaning solutions, some for copper, some for powder fouling, and I use both.

In my limited experience, I find that my off the shelf Savage does not shoot well if I clean out all the copper. It'll sometimes take 15 to 20 rounds to shoot well again, and the bullets fly in a predictable pattern starting high and left and slowly walking into the center.

Interestingly, I consider it a success that my first few rounds of American Eagle grouped so well, as I did not clean out the copper but did remove a lot of carbon fouling. But the A.E. does not always shoot this well, even though it's all from the same lot, and that of course, is why I keep reloading. Still looking for that goldielocks load, and maybe expecting too much.

Maybe you're right Stomp442, I should be happy with what I've got, and ignore that OCD tendency I seem to have. LOL

Longrange, I am trying various seating depths and have shot identical loads at .015, .040, .080 off the lands to see what works best and my results seem to indicate close is better, and I am chasing the lands as the throat erodes. I have about 1300 rounds down the tube so far, but it seems to shoot about as well as it did new. I have saved all my targets since new, each with load identifiers written on them and group measurements, and have a spread sheet reflecting load info and performance. So I am trying to take this seriously.

To everybody who has read and responded, I sincerely appreciate all your input. I read, I apply your suggestions, and record the results. I guess it's only a matter of time before I figure out this particular rifle. Then I can go out and buy something new and start all over again. Am I :crazy: or what?

[LongRange]

there are SO many things that play into accuracy...have you tried any closer to the lands than .015? if not try .010 and .005 if you can get that close and see how those shoot...you may end up touching the lands...also if you have 1300 rounds through it and its a factory barrel it MIGHT just be at the end of its life.

[sixonetonoffun]

McGowan's have been really good for me. Really minimal amount of fouling. I'm sure most premium barrels are the same.

Copper fouling has really only been an issue for me in a factory over-bore 7RM barrel. 223, 308 hasn't been a real issue and they see a lot more use.

Lately I have been trying the volume approach still weigh charges but goal being a certain percentage over case capacity. Maintaining a compressed load.

Yes crimping so its not for everything. Takes some experimenting to find just the right powder but the couple of success's so far have been worth the time invested. 270 is a shining example we have that whistling so nicely its out performing the 7RM currently. Though I experct H1000 or Retumbo will cure that.

[barefooter56]

Texas10,
What is the ONLY difference between the American Eagle foulers (.232) and the American Eagle .180 group at the end of your session ? The barrel had been fouled to its optimum point! Take a practice target to the range with you next time and shoot fouling rounds at it until the bullet strikes stop rising and begin to cluster. THEN start your group shooting. Re test the load you have this way and see what you get. Or stick with the American Eagle since it shoots so well out of your rifle. You never know. My Savage 12 Varmint .223 loves 40 grain bullets seated to magazine length and the load off the front of the Benchmark bottle. I wish it was that easy all the time! lol !
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech

[Texas10]

Barefooter56, There is at least two other differences between the first A.E. group and last. The barrel was warm, and after shooting about 50 rounds I had some valuable recent experience behind the gun (I'd not shot in about 3 weeks).

Regarding barrel temp, this particular gun has shown that a warming barrel effects accuracy greatly. I have played with action screw torque as many here have suggested, and with good results however, I do not own an inch-pound torque wrench so performing a more precise adjustment has so far eluded me. For now, I have hand torqued the rear action screw, noted the accuracy change, and then marked the screw head with an index to be able to observe a change if it should occur, or if action is removed from the stock I can at least get back to somewhat close.

I really need to bed this stock, just haven't done it yet. Also, the rear tang is bearing on the stock. Not a good thing if my research is any indication.

As for time behind the gun, I know that I am making small, but appreciable mistakes in my form and methods. I am using the supplied sand bags...each bench is has 7 or 8...and I choose a good solid bench if possible, not one of the wobbly ones. But in the end, I am just an amateur who with my stock rifle and imprecise loading, do get occasionally good groups, but not with any regularity.

Still, the hunt goes on...:smile-new:

[jonbearman]

When you shoot that gun say 250 rounds or so do the same test with handloads first and a light cleaning then try the American eagle and see what happens. Does reloading save money, In the long run yes it does. You should seek out the most reasonable place to buy your components. I use powder valley, midsouth, natchez, grafs, etc to find the best prices possible. If you are buying components at the mom and pop store they have to charge high prices to survive.

[Texas10]

Jonbearman,

I have not cleaned the copper from my barrel for at least a couple hundred rounds, just the fouling. I do use a boreshake at the range if I see accuracy starting to fall off. Usually the first shot after the boresnake is a flier, then it settles back down.

I have reloaded another batch of same loads and will repeat the process again, this time shooting the A.E. as 5 shot groups afterwards with a light cleaning before. Thanks for the suggestion.