Seating to lands???

[BarrelNuts]

I've seen a lot of references to folks seating their bullets to the lands... since I'm fairly new to reloading and all my ventures thus far have involved measuring factory ammo of the same bullet weight and seating to that depth.

The basic understanding I have thus far is you can use a specially made gauge OR notch a case neck and de-burr, place a bullet in the case and use a dowel or similar rod to push the bullet forward (gently) until it stops then removing the case; measuring the OACL and seating to that length.

First question is if this is the correct procedure; the notching case method as I don't feel like spending $30 or more on something I can make myself for about $1.
Second question is WHY should I be worried about this vice just sticking to the SAAMI/reloading manual's OACL... in fairly easy to understand terms.

Thanks in advance

[foxx]

I don't know if I recommend you trying to make the tool you describe yourself, but it won't cost much to try, so go ahead.

As to WHY bothering to know the length at which point the bullet hits the lands... because, as you will discover if you study more about reloading and experiment yourself, different bullets and rifles like different specs. No one rifle is the same as another. Sometimes a rifle prefers a certain bulletin to be seated against the lands, some like to be a bit off the lands, or a bit more yet. If you determine that it prefers to be a certain distance from the lands, then you want to be able to duplicate that later. Also, in time, the throat erodes and therefore the start of the lands will move further down the barrel. As it does so, you may find it prefers the bullet to be seated longer and longer so as to keep it's specific proximity to the lands. Without measuring and experimenting, you'll never know that.

However, if you are not particularly interested in handloading for the sake of the challenge of finding optimal accuracy, it isn't really necessary to do this. Load 'em and shoot 'em. Have fun.

One caution: Be careful not to seat the bullet so long as to actually bury the bullet into the lands. Doing so can cause excessively high pressure and be dangerous.
One cannot determine whether your bullets are seated correctly based upon the length a similarly weighted bullet is seated in a factory round. Weight of the bullet has nothing to do with the shape of the bullet or the spot it hits the lands.

I'd suggest you study your reloading manuals closely. They all address the issue fairly well for general purposes and safety.

Finally, OACL does not really have much to do with anything other than determining whether the cartridge will fit in your magazine.

[BarrelNuts]

I'm looking at starting to stretch out to longer range shooting; so definitely want to find the optimal accuracy you talked about... from what I'm gathering having the bullet just touching the lands is a good place to start from and then tweak from there... as far as the load 'em and shoot 'em and having fun I don't think you have to worry about that front being covered!

[foxx]

Take another look at my answer... I added some things since your reply.

[D.ID]

I start about ten thousands off the lands and move away ten thousandths at a time.........never got past twenty.
.
Seating depth has made a bigger difference in my system's accuracy than everything else combined.........literally.
Bedding the rifle action, base, rings, sorting bullets, sorting brass, swapping barrels, checking run out etc. etc. and on and on.
All of which produces more consistency and helped a little but finding the right seating depth can turn a 1.5" group into a 0.25 group with the same exact components!
.
The $30 spent on the gauge was and is worth every dime many times over.

[rjtfroggy]

Barrelnuts I have loaded for Savage rifles for a long time(since 1973) and over the years have found that not one of mine liked to be touching or into the lands.
What I have found is that somewhere between .018-.022 off is the usual "sweet spot" for mine, and allmost all will shoot much better than .5 moa. I check my seating depth 2 ways when starting a new load, I use a Sinclair tool and the slip method described each way will work with decent calibers.
I also am not a speed freak I start all my loads at the mid point of where the book(usually 2 or 3) and work up .2gr.at a time till I find the accurate load then play with seating depth .002 at a time to tighten the groups this is how I found the above spread to be my average for my rifles, barrels have not made a difference, factory,Douglas Shilen,CBI or Mcgowen all pretty much act the same for my style of shooting. Off the bench out to 200 yards and out of a stand out to if lucky 100 yards, in Ct. shots will not be further than that when in the woods.
In 40 some odd years only 1 rifle has gone further out from the lands and that is a 308 LE that with 150 gr. bullets with 42 gr. of IMR 4895 likes to be at .040 off. why who knows? Every gun is different, but with out a few tools and some experiment you will never find the optimum accuracy, YMMV. Good shooting.

[LongRange]

good read on the tools you need....

http://www.6mmbr.com/catalog/item/1433308/977259.htm

a great video on precision reloading(if you havent seen it here already)yes its long but worth watching....

http://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?43823-Very-informative-video-on-precision-reloading

im not sure what you consider long range or stretching it out but if you plan to start shooting 1000+yds and want "CONSISTENCY" be prepared to spend a few bucks on tools and spend time preping your brass...like D.ID said above seating is a big part of long range accuracy but so is brass prep.
another thing is to make sure your riffle and your load will even be up to shooting consistently at longer ranges.

[BarrelNuts]

By "stretching out" I mean going past 500... I'd love to get to 1k+ however facilities in my area are hard to find... the closest is about 3 hours away. My up-to-now case prep for reloading has been with my .25-06; which is used primarily for hunting within 300 yards. My normal routine is to run the brass through a tumbler cleaner, run the case through a full length resizing die, then clean the primer pocket. I then use a flash hole deburrer/uniformer, then if needed trimmer, deburr and chamfer the mouth and go from there... I get pretty good results using this process even with re-using factory brass; usually between 1/2 and 3/4" at 100 from a sand bag when I do my part (regular 111xp package with 3-9x40 Nikon). As far as length I shoot 100gr NBTs; I basically make them same OAL as the 100gr NBT Federal Premium factory stuff; obviously not the most precise but it has worked so far. I'm also pretty sure that if I worked with developing it I would be able to get more accuracy; up until now hasn't made much sense to really do so since it holds "minute of deer" very well within 300 yards.

Not sure what else would go into case prep; any pointers would be appreciated. For the .260 I just built (still waiting on glass) I'm starting with new lapua brass, Nosler 129gr ABLR, and IMR 4350... Plan on doing a FL size on the first load and neck size only from then on.

With LR shooting it seems like there are a hundred variables that can be tweaked/adjusted and if they are all working together then the results are beautiful; if one is off then you spend your time trying to figure out which variable it is and which direction to change it in!

[PaddyD]

"Not sure what else would go into case prep; any pointers would be appreciated."

Barrelnuts, Take the time and click on the video link Longrange posted in your thread earlier. I can guarantee you it will thoroughly explain more in depth about the hows and whys of ALL aspects of reloading from case prep to powder and bullet selection and the list goes on and on. Trust me when I tell you it will be worth your time.
http://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?43823-Very-informative-video-on-precision-reloading

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igse-APgpEc

[BarrelNuts]

Watched the video... information overload; need to watch it again. TONS of information there... big thanks for sharing!

[PaddyD]

Agreed it is long. With both parts 1 and 2 it's over 2 hrs long, but the info is solid. David Tubbs is a world class shooting champ. I'd have to say he knows a thing or two about reloading ammunition. Pass the links on to whomever you think might benefit.

[LongRange]

By "stretching out" I mean going past 500... I'd love to get to 1k+ however facilities in my area are hard to find... the closest is about 3 hours away. My up-to-now case prep for reloading has been with my .25-06; which is used primarily for hunting within 300 yards. My normal routine is to run the brass through a tumbler cleaner, run the case through a full length resizing die, then clean the primer pocket. I then use a flash hole deburrer/uniformer, then if needed trimmer, deburr and chamfer the mouth and go from there... I get pretty good results using this process even with re-using factory brass; usually between 1/2 and 3/4" at 100 from a sand bag when I do my part (regular 111xp package with 3-9x40 Nikon). As far as length I shoot 100gr NBTs; I basically make them same OAL as the 100gr NBT Federal Premium factory stuff; obviously not the most precise but it has worked so far. I'm also pretty sure that if I worked with developing it I would be able to get more accuracy; up until now hasn't made much sense to really do so since it holds "minute of deer" very well within 300 yards.

Not sure what else would go into case prep; any pointers would be appreciated. For the .260 I just built (still waiting on glass) I'm starting with new lapua brass, Nosler 129gr ABLR, and IMR 4350... Plan on doing a FL size on the first load and neck size only from then on.

With LR shooting it seems like there are a hundred variables that can be tweaked/adjusted and if they are all working together then the results are beautiful; if one is off then you spend your time trying to figure out which variable it is and which direction to change it in!

your on the right track for sure....a couple of things id suggest...full length size every time....take your fired brass and set your die up to just bump the shoulder back about .002...trim your necks and chamfer inside,outside every time...like you said in your last sentence...there are a lot of variables and the more you can eliminate the better and ALWAYS do your prep the same way dont skip a step because the minute you do things go south and your scratching your head wondering WTF. also might want to try some 140g bullets...the hornadys are cheap and shoot good....ive had my best luck with CCI primers and they have produced the smallest extreme spreads in my last 4 barrels and if the 4350 isnt working as well as you want it to grab a 1lb of reloader 17.

[BarrelNuts]

I've heard RL17 works good but also read a few others who use the Hodgdon variant of 4350 as well as I think 4831 in both IMR and Hodg. CCI is what I use for the .25-06 so will continue to use those unless for some reason it doesn't work.
What seems to be the key word is consistency... that and being able to measure to ensure consistency and knowing what and how to measure to ensure consistency...

[LongRange]

H4350 is the go to powder in the 260...IMR4350 works well and a buddy of mine is using AA4350 with great results...H4831sc is another accurate powder...i have IMR 4831 but have never tried it in my 260...RL-22 and norma MRP work well to...ive shot a lot of different powders in my 260 and always seem to end up back to the RL-17.

and you are correct...consistency is the key.

[BarrelNuts]

H4350 is the go to powder in the 260...IMR4350 works well and a buddy of mine is using AA4350 with great results...H4831sc is another accurate powder...i have IMR 4831 but have never tried it in my 260...RL-22 and norma MRP work well to...ive shot a lot of different powders in my 260 and always seem to end up back to the RL-17.

and you are correct...consistency is the key.

I think for time being I'll stick with the one powder/primer set up and see just how tight I can tune the groups with adjusting seating depth and powder charge. The 129gr ABLR's were chosen because aside from trying to make steel go ding occasionally I will still use the rifle for hunting. From some loose, very tentative calculations at 600 (the absolute max range I have open FOV on and WAY beyond my current capabilities) assuming 2850 MV on the 129's I would still have enough velocity (1954) to ensure the projectile "opens" and enough energy (1093) to provide a clean kill. I don't see myself ever shooting at an animal past 400 unless I have proven to myself I can hit a 6" gong very reliably at that range; as in 9 times out of 10 in a multitude of weather conditions. Of course... a pound of 4350 and a box of 100 bullets will likely be gone pretty quickly; will have to assess where things are at then.

[BarrelNuts]

Also... Trying but unable to find the RCBS Mic Gauge for .260 and it seems like I'm looking for a unicorn; does anyone know if they make one for .260 or should I use the .308 or other similar set based on the .308 parent case?

[PaddyD]

Also... Trying but unable to find the RCBS Mic Gauge for .260 and it seems like I'm looking for a unicorn; does anyone know if they make one for .260 or should I use the .308 or other similar set based on the .308 parent case?

Here's their website, but no 260 is listed. Maybe try emailing them.
http://shop.rcbs.com/Products/Case-Preparation/Measuring-Tools/Precision-Mic%E2%84%A2.aspx

[BillPa]

Also... Trying but unable to find the RCBS Mic Gauge for .260 and it seems like I'm looking for a unicorn; does anyone know if they make one for .260 or should I use the .308 or other similar set based on the .308 parent case?

I don't use the RCBS mics but as long as they have clearance for the neck you can use a 308 for the 260. The casehead to shoulder lengths are the same for all the cartridges in the family, 243,260, 7-08 and etc.

Bill

[jersurf101]

To make my dies to figure distance to lands I use once fired unsized cases. I dremmel 3 cuts and push the flanges to hold the desired projectile in place. Run the die through the rifle ten to fifteen times and record the results. That should get an accurate measurement for the projectile used. I only really play close to the lands with secant ogive bullets like Berger and for the record I do get best results around .008 off of the lands. Hornady 168 HP's, bulk 150's, Hornady 180 SP's and 165 Sierra GK's all do better with some run out between .025 and .050 to the lands. YMMV.