Concentricity - how big of a difference?

[Burr]

? I guess an old guy who dosent read very well cant be expected to understand very well either.
Anyway Burr whats your favorite way to catch walleyes? lol, do I have to pick just one? One hint, the other site I frequent is crank-bait-o-holics anon...

But there is something special about pulling a 12 lb eye through 52 inches of ice when it's -18, and finessing it to get it turned up the 10" hole in the ice. Anything big enough that can't turn around once it's headed up the hole is fun - on a Live Target, Flutter Spoon, Shimmy Spoon, or the soon to be released Kubar. Yeah, design and make lures too.

With Walleye, I like to figure out what gets them to go on any given day, then I'm done. It's the challenge of all the presentations, and when to use them. I run a few tournaments, somebody always finds a way to get them to go, that's the interesting part.

Need to learn a little more about these arbor presses. I've seen them before, and never really put much thought into them since they appear so fragile in comparison to the bench mounted rockchucker. I always thought they were just for handloading at the range, not for precision. Off to youtube I go.

Earl, Yes on the neck turning. That's what I was thinking too. While I don't fully understand what exactly is the correct neck tension, I've already thought it through and decided I can never get consistent neck tension unless the necks are turned to the "same" thickness all the way around. Plus a goat gun is on the way with a "tight" neck chamber, that has to be turned - no factory ammo. So I am getting a head start on the neck turning learning curve on brass a little less expensive than the 300WM. Gun builder is going to provide the dies I need, I should find out what he's providing and consider going the same route for the 250AI.

Anyway - I recently got the K&M neck turning tools - anyone else less than satisfied with the K&M cartridge holder? It seems like the K&M cartridge holder does not hold the cartridge true - it wabbles when I chuck it up - if it doesn't turn the cartridge in a straight line, how would I get consistent thickness in the neck trimmer? I picked up a Sinclair cartridge holder to try out, but I haven't chucked it up yet. Here's what I got to try out. http://www.brownells.com/reloading/case-preparation/neck-turning/neck-turning-accessories/sinclair-driver-caseholders-prod33962.aspx Good holder?

I like the tip on turning the brass 180 degrees when seating the bullet, and reseating. Easy to try but I've never done that before. I've sorted through enough 22-250 loads, that I can't shoot anyway because I don't have a 22-250 anymore. Time to put them away. As I worked my way through the 22-250 - they were consistently .010-.012 in run out. Only a couple worse, and none better in a box of 100. If anything, I guess my procedures loading the 22-250 were consistent. 98% were the same .010-.012 run out.

I'm going to grab some of the .270 rounds I made. I've got that gun shooting really well as it is. I'll measure the run out, and try to set 4 different groups of 5 aside. 1 group that I straighten to .002 or less. 1 group that's .005 or less without any adjustments, and two set's of 5 that are as bad as they get - 1 I'll put in the chamber facing the same way every time, and one I'll load randomly - go shoot them and see if I'm consistent enough to detect any difference in grouping, and chrono the groups to measure SD. The .270 is a factory gun with a whip barrel, so might be hard to get meaningful results.

Not a good day to shoot today either. The rain gave way to.... snow. I'll wait for it to warm up a bit.

[LongRange]

Turned with the same tools you have...i doubt the sinclair will be any better...ive heard the 21st century case holder is nice.


http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-57.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-57.jpg.html)

[yobuck]

[QUOTE=Burr;315900]lol, do I have to pick just one? One hint, the other site I frequent is crank-bait-o-holics anon...

But there is something special about pulling a 12 lb eye through 52 inches of ice when it's -18, and finessing it to get it turned up the 10" hole in the ice. Anything big enough that can't turn around once it's headed up the hole is fun - on a Live Target, Flutter Spoon, Shimmy Spoon, or the soon to be released Kubar. Yeah, design and make lures too.

With Walleye, I like to figure out what gets them to go on any given day, then I'm done. It's the challenge of all the presentations, and when to use them. I run a few tournaments, somebody always finds a way to get them to go, that's the interesting part.

Earl, Yes on the neck turning. That's what I was thinking too. While I don't fully understand what exactly is the correct neck tension, I've already thought it through and decided I can never get consistent neck tension unless the necks are turned to the "same" thickness all the way around.


Burr your gonna have to pick just one. What (one) would you not even consider being without?
As for neck tension, certainly im not opposed to turning necks when the chamber requires it.
But i also feel it really isnt necessary for most of us who are using guns not requiring it.
For shooters who load and shoot the ammo at a match the same day they load it is one thing.
First off they will usually have carefully selected a few very uniform cases which they use in the match.
They will also have sorted their bullets, touched up the tips, etc etc.
But for those of us who load up enough to last for awhile for fun shooting and hunting is quite another.
Try pulling some bullets on cases that have been loaded for awhile and see what happens.
So neck tension will change radicly as ammo sits around. IMHO annealing could have as much
affect as turning the necks.

[DanSavage]

Ive owned redding dies since day one of my reloading and really like them but after using the wilson and an arbor press i rarely use the reddings anymore and when i get my forster FL die back ill most likely put my redding dies up for sale.
If I had to do my reloading kit all over I would have went with the Wilson die's and arbor press for sure. They are definitely in my future when coin permits,,, but I need more bullets,,another high power scope,,you guys know how it goes.Lol My shooting mentor only uses wilson and arbor press,,I was amazed when I saw how they work,,there simply the best.

[LongRange]

If I had to do my reloading kit all over I would have went with the Wilson die's and arbor press for sure. They are definitely in my future when coin permits,,, but I need more bullets,,another high power scope,,you guys know how it goes.Lol My shooting mentor only uses wilson and arbor press,,I was amazed when I saw how they work,,there simply the best.

Like me...more IN MIND projects then IN POCKET MONEY!

[sharpshooter]

I have found that concentricity problems are more likely to be in the brass itself, not in the dies. If a case has .0 runout coming out of the sizer die, you cant fault the die. I tried many seater dies with equal luck, and when it was bad, it was always traced back to the brass being the culprit. When seating a bullet, it will always move to the weak side of the neck. Whether it is thicker on one side or just stiffer, it will always move to the weak side. Another cause is the case mouth being slightly out of square, tipping the bullet as it seats. It also helps to use a low angle chamfer on the mouth to reduce the starting pressure.

[jonbearman]

The only thing I don't like about fixed bearings on the Sinclair and the like is it can eccentuate the runout with the cartridge body not springing back exactly the same so there are arguments to both. I agree with bill having 2 indicators. Personally using quality dies and a Wilson to seat I don't even check them as they can shoot in the zero's with my 6ppc.

[jonbearman]

Long range, you cut into that shoulder at the wrong angle possibly weakening it. If you don't have a pma tool with the correct shoulder angle you should only cut to the shoulder radius and as you fire it that way it will blend nicely.

[Burr]

YoBuck - in the next couple of days I'll tackle the picture posting and give a walleye lure (or two). The best ones are the lures hanging off the chin of a 30" walleye, right?

But I do have a question - getting back to my 250AI. Admittedly not a very standard cartridge I selected, but one I've always wanted to try, and since it was time to rebarrel I thought it would also be a good time to get one. Good selection or not - that's the one cartridge I'm going to do some work on.

As suggested - I did some research on reloading tooling, procedures others have suggested above. I'm thinking LE Wilson Hand Dies - for a 250 Savage Ackley Improved. A Wilson bushing die for 250AI would be a custom die - I could purchase the blank, take it to my gunsmith that reamed my chamber, and ream a die.

But IF the 22-250 AI Wilson die with different bushing works - it's a stock die. Since the Wilson Hand Dies are bushing dies - will a 22-250 Ackley improved Wilson Hand Die work with the appropriate bushing for the .257 bore?

Second question - as I contemplate the arbor press. I don't need the arbor press to be portable (all reloading will take place in my reloading room) - any reason why I can't use my bench top drill press as an arbor press? They make these hand dies work with a hammer, I would think the drill press, chucked up with a push bar would work.

I've got a plan to experiment with another die too - which will have to be a custom die made from my fired brass. But that's down the road, if at all. More on that later.

[hafejd30]

Couple things I've learned reloading-

1- quality brass will get you tighter groups than neck turning. This is your foundation to an accurate round. That said I've had good luck with Winchester more so than Hornady or federal on the cheaper end. If you do turn the necks, only take a portion of the brass "the high spots", not removing 100 of the surface area on the neck. Like 60-70% should be shinny when finished

2- lee collet dies used properly will yield runout that you pay dearly for with other brands. I run my match 308 and 260 on lee collet dies and 90% of rounds have .002 or less runout measured with a Hollands concentricity gauge. None over .004.

3- Annealing can play a significant factor in how consistent your rounds are.

I have shot rounds with .006 runout and rounds with .001 runout against each other- made no difference in a factory barrel and minor difference in custom barrel.

Also shot annealed rounds against non annealed rounds in a custom barrel. At 300 yards (5shots) the annealed shot a group almost half the size on the non annealed. Annealed also showed a spread of 20 fps vs non annealed with a spread of 37 fps- same loads other than the annealing

[yobuck]

[QUOTE=Burr;316224]YoBuck - in the next couple of days I'll tackle the picture posting and give a walleye lure (or two). The best ones are the lures hanging off the chin of a 30" walleye, right?

NO,i dont think that is right, but it does sell lures.
5 years ago, i didnt know a single person who annealed their cases.
Yet several of my friends have been record holders at Williamsport. The only guy
to have ever to this day won the best agregate award for all matches in a single year 2 times, never annealed his cases.
Which at least in my opinion prooves we just cant buy our way.

[LongRange]

Long range, you cut into that shoulder at the wrong angle possibly weakening it. If you don't have a pma tool with the correct shoulder angle you should only cut to the shoulder radius and as you fire it that way it will blend nicely.


That case was actually not cut into the shoulder enough as those cases formed doughnuts...the reason it looks funny is because the cutter barely touched the shoulder so the angle in the cutter didnt blend the junction...If you dont cut into the shoulder enough you get doughnuts to much and you blow the necks off as im sure you know. That case was strong as it shot a 140g hornady at 3075fps....the neck was fine but the primer pocket wasnt happy lol.

[LongRange]

yobuck.....i bet jim richards anneals his brass.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/04/best-10-shot-1000-yard-group-in-history-be-amazed/

[Burr]

Couple things I've learned reloading-

1- quality brass will get you tighter groups than neck turning. This is your foundation to an accurate round. That said I've had good luck with Winchester more so than Hornady or federal on the cheaper end. If you do turn the necks, only take a portion of the brass "the high spots", not removing 100 of the surface area on the neck. Like 60-70% should be shinny when finished

2- lee collet dies used properly will yield runout that you pay dearly for with other brands. I run my match 308 and 260 on lee collet dies and 90% of rounds have .002 or less runout measured with a Hollands concentricity gauge. None over .004.

3- Annealing can play a significant factor in how consistent your rounds are.

I have shot rounds with .006 runout and rounds with .001 runout against each other- made no difference in a factory barrel and minor difference in custom barrel.

Also shot annealed rounds against non annealed rounds in a custom barrel. At 300 yards (5shots) the annealed shot a group almost half the size on the non annealed. Annealed also showed a spread of 20 fps vs non annealed with a spread of 37 fps- same loads other than the annealing

I'm pretty much on board with what you're stating. Last week I had to work out of town, the good part was there's a pretty well stocked reloading store that I visit when I work there. While $111 is a healthy amount to pay for brass, I didn't have to pay for shipping since I was there to take it home. With the bonus being Lapua brass - which is annealed, and reported to be rather consistent neck thickness , so turning may be minimized. So I'm not pulling bullets in my 22-250 loaded rounds to reload anymore.

The other option I mentioned above that I had a plan to try - is the LCD. I'll send a few formed cases, and it's still not that expensive at the website rates to have a custom LCD set made, which will also provide me with another bullet seating option to try.

I don't usually buy things like dies 3 times for the same cartridge - but I want to try a few different things and compare/evaluate the results. I realize almost none of these things will make a difference on minute of deer inside 300 yards. But I want to explore the longer distances and know I have to tighten things up to have consistency at longer distances. So I'm going to give it a whirl and try some things, compare the results. INCLUDING the standard off the shelf Redding die.

I've always stayed away from digital, electronic tools for reloading when I have a mechanical option. It's that fear of reaching for a tool to find out the battery deteriorated and ruined the tool. So I have mostly mechanical tools. Sorting brass is, well, interesting with beam equipment....

How frequent is the annealing process? 4-5 reloads and time to anneal again?

[hafejd30]

I use lapua brass as well. I anneal every load. I have a bench source annealer so it's simple to use. Every couple would probably be fine tho. Know what your doing. There's a fine line between doing nothing and frying case necks. Tempilaq works well for this.

[LongRange]

i shoot lapua brass as well and anneal every second firing...like hafejd said get some Tempilaq 750 so you know your getting the right heat.

also $111 bucks isnt a bad price...look at it this way...if you load that 20 times its actually only 5.5 cents each and if you take care of that brass you will be able to get more out of it then that.

[yobuck]

yobuck.....i bet jim richards anneals his brass.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/04/best-10-shot-1000-yard-group-in-history-be-amazed/

Well today it seems everybody does including me. I have no doubt my brass will last a little longer due to that but i do doubt
im a noticably better shooter due to it.
To me in my own strange way of evaluating things there is really only 1 way of making very good chicken soup.
So i choose not to make chicken soup. Im willing to settle for the best canned variety.
I chose chicken specificly so as not to have any over the hill bull involved. lol

[LongRange]

Well today it seems everybody does including me. I have no doubt my brass will last a little longer due to that but i do doubt
im a noticably better shooter due to it.
To me in my own strange way of evaluating things there is really only 1 way of making very good chicken soup.
So i choose not to make chicken soup. Im willing to settle for the best canned variety.
I chose chicken specificly so as not to have any over the hill bull involved. lol

its a good thing you only eat chicken now because your full of bull LMAO!!!

all the prep work i do dont make me a better shooter(as youve seen by my group pics)but it does take case issues out of the equation so that when i shoot a low score i cant blame my ammo. as far as annealing what ive found is that with annealed brass i get .000.5 spring back when sizing which gives me more consistent neck tension and lower ES's...after 2 firings(third time loading)if not annealed the spring back goes to .001 and continues to get worse up to about.001.5 to .002 with 5x fired brass.
like hafejd i know several guys that anneal every time but for me every second firing seems to work well.

[yobuck]

its a good thing you only eat chicken now because your full of bull LMAO!!!


They say the surface of the planet is about 2/3 water.
But what we dont know at least for sure is how much of the remaining 1/3 is covered with B S.
One thing is for sure however in that shooters, hunters and fishermen are responsible for an awfull lot of it.
Except thee and me, and sometimes im very suspicious about thee. lol

[LongRange]

They say the surface of the planet is about 2/3 water.
But what we dont know at least for sure is how much of the remaining 1/3 is covered with B S.
One thing is for sure however in that shooters, hunters and fishermen are responsible for an awfull lot of it.
Except thee and me, and sometimes im very suspicious about thee. lol

Lmao now aint that the truth!!
Ive heard more BS come out of those three groups than most any others.