How would I form a 223 shoulder and neck, on a short 223 case?

[briannmilewis]

Greetings: I am dipping my toe in the wildcat water again, yet another idea, my first idea I put forward got really great and detailed responses.

If I had a 223 case that had been cut-off, making it 1" long including the base, (so the case no longer had a shoulder or neck) what dies would I need to put a 223 neck and shoulder on that now shortened case? Is it easy, moderatly challenging or difficult?

Thanks in anticipation.

P.S. One more question...Can I form the neck and shoulder in one stage, or do I need to do multiple stages because it is starting with no neck and shoulder?

[82boy]

You would need a set of forming dies.
After that you can make it any length, shoulder angle and neck length you want. (within reason)

[stevec]

You can trim the appropriate amount off of the bottom of a FL223 die, but the more you trim, the smaller the base will be. Considering you could chamber your barrel with a 223 reamer held the same amount short, the die would match the chamber. I have done this with a 6rem held to 243 length before.

Steve

[Eric in NC]

How about just going with a 22 Jet ;)

If you want the rimless case, it might be less work to start with 221 brass (won't be as thick at the new neck).

[briannmilewis]

How about just going with a 22 Jet ;)

If you want the rimless case, it might be less work to start with 221 brass (won't be as thick at the new neck).


Looked at the 22 Jet specs and it is still too big for my purposes.

221 Brass is significantly thinner than regular 223, so I want to start with military or commercial 223, and use the 221 as a fallback incase the forming and case life from the mil/comm stuff is not satisfactory.

As always, I appreciate all the feedback.



You can trim the appropriate amount off of the bottom of a FL223 die, but the more you trim, the smaller the base will be. Considering you could chamber your barrel with a 223 reamer held the same amount short, the die would match the chamber. I have done this with a 6rem held to 243 length before.

Steve


I understand about trimming the bottom of a FL 223 die, I like this as a fallback position actually, not too bad an idea, if it saves the cost of a forming die. There is only a 0.018 taper on full length 223, and I am only looking at 0.008 taper at the point where the neck would start.

Keep the answers and ideas coming in...thanks so much.

[outlawkyote]

Why not trim off your 223 reloading die to the length you desire (so all your sizing is the neck and shoulder) (you dont have to make it the same length at the cartridge). Then use that die to FL size your brass THEN CUT OFF THE NECK to the desired length. This would save you from having to get forming dies. Shortening a case will lengthen the neck, cutting the necks to your desired length (I might recomend going with a longer neck than the 223 also since you will have the extra length anyhow) will save you time. Ive always apreciated the longer necks for holding the bullets in line better.

[briannmilewis]

Why not trim off your 223 reloading die to the length you desire (so all your sizing is the neck and shoulder) (you dont have to make it the same length at the cartridge). Then use that die to FL size your brass THEN CUT OFF THE NECK to the desired length. This would save you from having to get forming dies. Shortening a case will lengthen the neck, cutting the necks to your desired length (I might recomend going with a longer neck than the 223 also since you will have the extra length anyhow) will save you time. Ive always apreciated the longer necks for holding the bullets in line better.


I am a little unclear what you are proposing here. When you say "cut off your 223 reloading die", which one? Full length resizing die, neck sizing die? I will be removing approx 0.760" of case body including the shoulder and neck of a standard 223 case. I imagine steps like this, and please add or remove anything that makes no sense, I am a newbie at this.

Step 1: Full length size all brass before cutting and forming.

Step 2: Cut brass to length that will produce the desired case OAL of the finished cartridge after forming. I will use a hobby miter saw to cut each case to approx 1" long including the base.

Step 3: Using a (case forming die or modified FL die, or something else) form a 223 shoulder and neck in one action, if possible, or will it take a number of steps?

I feel we are making progress here, I appreciate it.

[Apache]

Have you looked at the 22 cooper, 22 hornet or k hornet?

The case capacity of the cartridge you propose would be very similar to these...especially the hornet.

[briannmilewis]

Have you looked at the 22 cooper, 22 hornet or k hornet?

The case capacity of the cartridge you propose would be very similar to these...especially the hornet.


Bingo, give the man a cigar! My design goals were:

(1) Match the Hornet performance and efficiency in a modern cartridge design based on a popular parent case. A replacement for the Hornet if you will. The 22 CCM is short on performance for me as it falls between the 22WMR and 22 Hornet.
(2) The cartridge design should be able to formed by any reloader with minimal extra investment in or modification of existing dies.
(3) Hornet 22 performance minimum, but nowhere near as powerful as the 221 Fireball.
(4) My powder goal was 1cc, and that is 25% more than in the Hornet, but only 2/3rds of the 221 charge.

[Apache]

Picture??

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/Apache5000/221Short.jpg

[Apache]

One by it's self:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/Apache5000/221Short1.jpg

[briannmilewis]

One by it's self:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/Apache5000/221Short1.jpg


Wow, Apache, you just saved me a lot of effort! The 221 Short dimensions are just so close to my drawing.

I did a Google search and could find nothing on the 221 Short. So where does it come from?

I am also thinking of a 17, 20 and 243 version. Have they been done too?

[Apache]

It only exists here...(that i know of) ....I just made up the name when I drew up the cartridge....


This wouldn't be an easy wildcat to do with existing dies. Best way would be a full set of customs...including forming dies.

223 Brass cut to the 1" mark would be pretty thick and need to be turned down, preferably before even starting to form neck and shoulders...You would need several annealing steps in the preparation of forming also. Lots of work for a rimless hornet... ;)

But, that's what wildcatting is all about!!! Go for it if you really want it!

Also may take a look here though: ;)


http://www.savagearms.com/40Varmint.htm

[Eric in NC]

yeah and you are going to have problems annealing the neck area w/o getting the head too hot on that short of a case too.

How about starting with a 30 carbine - can't recall the name of the 22 cal version of that one but that should be more friendly to work with.

Good luck!

[Apache]

That would make a nice little case to work with, but then you would have to have a custom bolt head made up I think as well as dies...

[Eric in NC]

The die work etc. has been done as there were several versions of the 22-30 marketed (the 5.7 Spitfire by M. Johnson of "Johnson automatic rifle fame was maybe the most widespread).

Midway has RCBS dies in stock - http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=132317


Plainfield made barrels and Iver Johnson sold its Plainfield version of the M1 in the chambering - there was headstamped brass and ammo available for a while - still see it sometimes.

It has a smaller head than a 223 but I think it is close enough that on a Savage you could get by with a longer extractor.

Decent article - http://www.thegunzone.com/carbine-wildcat.html
Pretty good article - http://www.thegunzone.com/carbine-wildcat.html

[1Shot]

...The 5.7 johnson would be the way to go...I thought about 1 when I was fooling with my hornet..Necked down 30 cal. carbine case... Case head is almost the same size as the hornets without the rim...Calhoun is makeing a CZ in .19 cal of that version..Calls it the Badger..I'ld op for a .20 cal version myself..Then you would'nt be stuck with 1 bullet maker..

[briannmilewis]

Folks - thanks for the fast follow up. Apache, 221 Short sounds good. The caution about how difficult it would be to form the cases is noted and appreciated. The ideas for alternate rounds is also appreciated. The enthusiasm for someone jumping into wildcatting is appreciated too.

Apache, what software did you use to draw the case? Is it some kind of cartridge software? I just scanned the Lee Reloading drawings, traced, assembled and modified them in a drawing program.

I am not discouraged about the original idea, it will need some serious work to make it happen. I will certainly keep you posted on it.

[Apache]

I use RCBS.Load for most of my work. Hope to get Quickload and Quickdesign someday soon.

[briannmilewis]

I use RCBS.Load for most of my work. Hope to get Quickload and Quickdesign someday soon.


I am in the IT business, but new to shooting and reloading, so I am not up to speed on the computerized parts yet.

Thanks.