111LRH in .25-06 not happy!

[rebelwolf10]

I only paid $1050 foy my 338 Lapua mag in a McMillian stock new. It's possible you got a lemon as I'm sure every company has them, look at Reminton 9 recalls last I looked.

I agree every company makes them. I believe its how they deal with them that counts. When I talk to a company rep and explain that their getting one barely adequate three shot did not address my concerns and that I felt that the rifle was not nearly worth what I had paid all he kept parroting back was they shot it three times and it passed. Now if your 338 did not perform and you had to send it back would you be happy with that response?

[handirifle]

In the companies defense, they have no idea IF you can even shoot a 1.5" group. This is NOT meant to be insulting to you since I have no idea what kind of a shooter you are. They can only bring a rifle in and shoot it to see what it does. Did you ask for a refund? Many years back I bought a USED Marlin 22 WMR semi auto. I loved that rifle until I found it would ONLY cycle FMJ ammo. FMJ was not what I wanted to shoot, and they took my word for it and offered to buy it back. I took their offer and bought a Savage 93 in 22 WMR. No regrets!

Did you try other bullet weights? It could be that barrel does not like the heavier bullets. As for the "normal" rattling muzzle break, I would find a way to fix that. It will act as a harmonic balancer or im-balancer in this case. I don't see the need for one on a 25-06 anyway. If it can be removed, remove it and retest.

I would also try other bullet weights.

[bythebook]

Ed you shot my BVSS 2 years ago at the shoot. I haven't done much working up a load as it seems to like the 100 gr. Sierra .

[jonbearman]

Take your rifle to a gunshop that has a bore scope to see if it is coppered up. To me it sounds like it needs cleaning with jb bore paste or Iosso to remove all the fouling from break in.You would be surprised at some of the guns that people bring to me that are totally coppered up and carbon fouled. What kind of scope are you using? Have you asked a friend to try it to make sure it isn't you? Not trying to be mean but what kind of rest do you use when shooting on the bench? Do you use a rear bag?

[short round]

Could the rattling muzzle brake be making contact with the bullet? Check for brass at exit of brake.

[rebelwolf10]

In the companies defense, they have no idea IF you can even shoot a 1.5" group. This is NOT meant to be insulting to you since I have no idea what kind of a shooter you are. They can only bring a rifle in and shoot it to see what it does. Did you ask for a refund? Many years back I bought a USED Marlin 22 WMR semi auto. I loved that rifle until I found it would ONLY cycle FMJ ammo. FMJ was not what I wanted to shoot, and they took my word for it and offered to buy it back. I took their offer and bought a Savage 93 in 22 WMR. No regrets!

Did you try other bullet weights? It could be that barrel does not like the heavier bullets. As for the "normal" rattling muzzle break, I would find a way to fix that. It will act as a harmonic balancer or im-balancer in this case. I don't see the need for one on a 25-06 anyway. If it can be removed, remove it and retest.

I would also try other bullet weights.

I have tried three different weights, same results. When I last talked to Savage to get more info they said they fired it three times got a group less an inch and a half and that was better than the guarantee. I explained that in all of the attempts to shoot this gun I had seen it do that once but the next group was well over two inches again and asked why they didn't do a following group when that was stated in the note that accompanied the gun. He stated that if they get a less than 1.5 inch group they are done. I told them I was still not happy with the gun and asked about any other options to troubleshhot it since I did not feel it was worth what I had paid. I was told they would not do anything else since it did meet their less than 1.5 inch guarantee. Told the rep I would no longer consider buying or reccommending Savage in the future and he said goodbye sir. The rattle has bothered me from day one but I didn't remove the brake or anything else because it may viod the warranty. Kind of laughable in hindsight. It will be removed soon.

[rebelwolf10]

Take your rifle to a gunshop that has a bore scope to see if it is coppered up. To me it sounds like it needs cleaning with jb bore paste or Iosso to remove all the fouling from break in.You would be surprised at some of the guns that people bring to me that are totally coppered up and carbon fouled. What kind of scope are you using? Have you asked a friend to try it to make sure it isn't you? Not trying to be mean but what kind of rest do you use when shooting on the bench? Do you use a rear bag?

I haven't tried having it bore scoped but I don't think it is a copped build up. I have cleaned it and even letting a patch with copper solvent on it stop and sit for 15 to 20 seconds at several places in the barrel showed no telltale blue on it. The first patches with copper solvent after cleaning with powder solvent did show a little blue but nothing serious. I have a borescope in route and will take a look when I get it.

[rebelwolf10]

Take your rifle to a gunshop that has a bore scope to see if it is coppered up. To me it sounds like it needs cleaning with jb bore paste or Iosso to remove all the fouling from break in.You would be surprised at some of the guns that people bring to me that are totally coppered up and carbon fouled. What kind of scope are you using? Have you asked a friend to try it to make sure it isn't you? Not trying to be mean but what kind of rest do you use when shooting on the bench? Do you use a rear bag?

First trip was shot off a caldwell front and rear bag setup. Not my best setup but its portable and usually good enough for a quick evaluation. After the scopes were swapped I used a caldwell 7 rest that again is no deadsled but has worked well for me in the past. Since I had swapped the scope to my other Savage I had brought it along. Same rest same day same booger hooker on the trigger and I was under .75 with every 5 shot group from the .22-250. That rifle with that load is very consistant at that size. I have better loads for it now but since I was just using it to make sure the new scope wasn't my problem decided to go with them. I know what I am capable of and I know what my typical attempt at a group look like. With the .22-250 I can amlost always get a three shot one hole group. The fouth or fifth shot will almost always open the group up. I know it's me since it happens with all my guns. That being said in this gun with all the attempts to get it to shoot it has shot where two holes touched one time out of 100 rounds. Does that sound like "The definition of Accuracy" to anyone? Had you spent over $800 for this rifle only to get Axis or worse accuracy would you be pleased with it. Now factor in the unconcerned customer rep when I said I wasn't satisfied.

[wbm]

Had you spent over $800 for this rifle only to get Axis or worse accuracy would you be pleased with it.

No. Especially in a caliber like the 25-06. As for the Savage rep, he is just doing "talking points" that he has been programmed to do. I don't think you will get any satisfaction at that level and would try to move up a notch in the factory rep chain. Personally I would lay off the "I will never buy another Savage" talk and if you get in touch with someone up the line at Savage I would go with the "I really heard a lot about "out of the box accuracy," that's why I bought a Savage. or something similar.

If you reload, I would go with Reloader 22 and/or H4831 in 110-117gr bullets. If a 25-06 won't shoot well with one of those powder bullet combinations then it probably is cursed. Just sayin.

[Bigeclipse]

I have wanted a rifle in the caliber for some time and finally decided to get one. Savage was on the top of the short list because of past experience with a model 12 in .22-250. The 111LRH at 850.00 was a bit above what I wanted to pay for a hunting rifle but with numerous reviews showing consistant sub moa accuracy in several bullet weights I decided to get one.

The gun will not shoot the most commonly found weight of 117 grains in anything less than 2 inches at 100 yards and most are over three inches. The 100 grain Federal with the Nosler Ballistic Tip that Savage uses to test their guns did shoot a group a bit over 1.5 inches at 100 yards but a second try with that bullet was over 2 inches.

Called "customer service" and was sent a replacement stock since they knew there were issues with that on this rifle. No help with the accuracy.

Second call resulted in sending the gun back to Savage, it was returned with a note saying they acheived a three shot group at close to one inch with the Federal bullet.

Third call was to tell them that one group did not mean anything the rifle had been inconsistant from day one with two different stocks and two different scopes using five different types of ammo. Was told they got a one inch group and only guarantee 1.5 or less. I said that I was not happy with my purchase and the gun was not worth what it cost if it would not perform at least as well as my 350.00 Ruger American. He said if it shoots under 1.5 inches with the one brand of ammo they use then it is fine. I told him I would not buy or reccommend another Savage rifle and he really couldn't have cared less.

Buyer beware Savage does make good rifles, I know I have one. However they do make poor rifles and I have one of those too. Apparently they have so many customers they are not concerned with how many they loose.

Just saying that happens with factory rifles....you don't always get one that will shoot out of the box. I'd beta grand that bedding the recoil lug and reloading would get you a sub MOA rifle...more likely a .5moa rifle. People expect to much with long range and factory rifles with factory rounds.

In my opinion....greater than 500 yards and you should be reloading...

I own a remington 700 mountain ss which cost 1100 bucks. Thing won't shoot factory ammo for crap and it is a 3006 so tons of types. Best group was 1.5inches at 100 yards. With my reloads it will consistant shoot .6 inch groups. The barrel has a very long throat which I think kills accuracy on factory rounds.

[rebelwolf10]

No. Especially in a caliber like the 25-06. As for the Savage rep, he is just doing "talking points" that he has been programmed to do. I don't think you will get any satisfaction at that level and would try to move up a notch in the factory rep chain. Personally I would lay off the "I will never buy another Savage" talk and if you get in touch with someone up the line at Savage I would go with the "I really heard a lot about "out of the box accuracy," that's why I bought a Savage. or something similar.

If you reload, I would go with Reloader 22 and/or H4831 in 110-117gr bullets. If a 25-06 won't shoot well with one of those powder bullet combinations then it probably is cursed. Just sayin.

I have two different choices of 115 or 117 grain bullets and H4831 ready to try. Hoever more than one factory rep says only 100 grain will work. I have some 95 grain Hornady gmx that I may try as well. Would have been nice to have one of the many factory loads actually shoot so I could possibly get a starting point for length and velocity.

As far as talking to them the first two times I did say pretty much what you suggested. When all he could do was parrot back the same line I'll admit I got a bit of the red ass and it went south. As far as going up the chain now I don't know. I may just eat more of a loss and have it done right. I have a son in law that is friends with a gunsmith that makes custom guns. He typically gets 5000.00 for a build. Won't be cheap but at least it will work and I won't have to fight for it. Shouldn't need to have to argue for customer service. When I said I wasn't happy with it or his explanation he should offer escalation if it is possible not stick to the script and basically tell me to live with it.

[rebelwolf10]

So the thought occured to me that I have never run across an accuracy guarantee on Savage's web site. Looked around and there is nowhere I could find that states 1.5 is all they guarantee. Now there is the word accuracy on nearly every page of their sight and in their catalog but no actual statement to what they consider accurate. Odd that they use the term "definition of accuracy" a lot without defining what that means to them.

[keeki]

Your not the first person to have problems with the long 117's in a 2506. Sounds like it's not stabilizing to me. Grab some 100 - 110 gr and I bet she rocks

[wbm]

I have two different choices of 115 or 117 grain bullets and H4831 ready to try. However more than one factory rep says only 100 grain will work.

I would go with what the factory rep says and go with 100 or less then. Especially if you are trying to get a load that it will shoot Mine shot the 115 Berger just fine. Berger lists a 1-10 rate for it. However, yours may not.

[rebelwolf10]

Your not the first person to have problems with the long 117's in a 2506. Sounds like it's not stabilizing to me. Grab some 100 - 110 gr and I bet she rocks

Tried 100 and 85 since that was all I could find on the shelf around here . You would lose that bet. First 85 grain run showed promise but follow up group was a scatter.

[big honkin jeep]

I have an old flatback sporter that was all over the place the first couple of trips to the range.
I picked it up on clearance well over a decade ago. and gave it to my youngest son.
Tried a couple of bullets from 75gr up to 120gr. Then I found RL22.
RL22 and a 110 accubond with a Win lr primer in Win brass fixed it right up. Heck the RL22 with most any bullets was much better than the other stuff I tried.
Now it'll put 5 in a spot the size of a dime and always seems to turn a few heads including deer heads which go straight down and kiss the dirt.
Several guys I have let shoot it made offers on it including a straight up trade offer for a Browning micro medallion with a Leupold on it. Just couldn't do it with my boys first deer rifle.
I wouldn't doubt when you find the right load it will do much more than you think.
Good luck

[rebelwolf10]

I have a few different options for bullets and powders but can't get anything in the rl line. I will probably try some loads in it sometime later but right now I'm generally disgusted with it. I will have access to a bore scope this weekend and after that I will decide where to go with it. I do have it listed for sale but being honest about its accuracy has hurt the offers a lot. The way it has acted so far it would take awhile of shooting well to have any faith in it.

[Txhillbilly]

I had Savage assemble me a 110 FLP a few years ago in 25/06,they had discontinued it a couple years before that but still had a few heavy barrels left in stock. It would only shoot 100 gr Sierra gameking or matchking bullets good,and then it would copper foul so badly it would take 2-3 days to get all of the copper out.
The bore looked like a washboard,and I figured if I sent it back to the factory the remaining barrels they had probably looked the same way. After hand lapping the barrel a couple times with little improvement,I contacted David Tubb's company and had them send me a complete set of their Final Finish bullets.
After fire lapping the barrel it woke up,and now shoots excellent,is easy to clean and doesn't copper foul near as much. It will shoot almost any weight of bullets from 100 gr - 120 gr,and it shoots the 115 gr bullets like a laser.
You might give the Final Finish bullets a try before you give up on it.

[rebelwolf10]

I had Savage assemble me a 110 FLP a few years ago in 25/06,they had discontinued it a couple years before that but still had a few heavy barrels left in stock. It would only shoot 100 gr Sierra gameking or matchking bullets good,and then it would copper foul so badly it would take 2-3 days to get all of the copper out.
The bore looked like a washboard,and I figured if I sent it back to the factory the remaining barrels they had probably looked the same way. After hand lapping the barrel a couple times with little improvement,I contacted David Tubb's company and had them send me a complete set of their Final Finish bullets.
After fire lapping the barrel it woke up,and now shoots excellent,is easy to clean and doesn't copper foul near as much. It will shoot almost any weight of bullets from 100 gr - 120 gr,and it shoots the 115 gr bullets like a laser.
You might give the Final Finish bullets a try before you give up on it.


I suspect the same is going on here. Either they shot it more than three times or it fouls real easy. Soaked it with gunslick pro foaming bore cleaner and getting a lot of blue foam. Blue means copper according to the label. Anyway giving it another soaking and will keep going until it is clean. Will try shooting it again after I am sure its clean and see how it does.

[Burr]

Sounds like the discussion started heading in the wrong direction, and everyone just continued to push it in the wrong direction. Truth be told, 25.06 brass is not hard to come by if a little time, effort, or possibly work is exerted, if you have the time, and the patience. Long and short of it, time and patience will solve this thing, if it can be solved. Lack of it guarantees it won't be solved. I've always considered the joy of hand loading is solving the situation you have at hand - a gun that only shoots so-so at best. That being said, I would not expect every gun that rolls off the line from any of the mass produced rifle makers to be perfect, or they would all cost a significant sum more. There are places that sell $4000 guns, and they all shoot. $800 guns, mmmmm, not so much, not all of them anyway.


At the same time, I'm a little surprised at the love being expressed for the 25.06. It's a pretty significantly over-bore capacity cartridge. But if you have been reloading for that long, you should be aware of that as well. Point being, if you already reload, you should be aware that purchasing a 25.06 "may" be quite a challenge to get it to shoot well. It's not an ideal bore to capacity cartridge. That being said, if/when you get it to shoot, it's a screamer, and also is something you can take extra satisfaction in handloading. It's not like you're reloading a .308 - ANYBODY can reload a .308 and get it to shoot. 25.06 will challenge you.

Step up to the challenge, rise to the challenge, figure it out. Get in the right frame of mind, have some patience, put on your thinking cap, and find out what it takes. Document your results with everything you try.

Sounds like you are already convinced it's the gun. Barrels are really not that expensive, and easy enough to do. put on a different barrel, if that solves it - you've then got something else to speak with Savage about.

Face it, what is nice about Savage is it is a component gun. If you want to make a shooter, you really should be able to figure out what is preventing it from shooting. I'm not saying it's free, but putting gas in my pickup isn't free either - but I do it.... It's a hobby, sometimes we land on the solution quickly, sometimes the path is a little longer to get there.


But that's just me. Who knows, maybe you've inspired me to buy a 25.06 - what I like is the challenge to find a solution, maybe I'm making it too easy on myself and I need to start with a cartridge that really is challenging.

If it was always easy, there wouldn't be forums to talk about it. Why would we spend time talking about simple stuff?