111 Long Rang Hunter 300WM time to rebarrel?

[Trapper458]

Hello All,

I started a project in December for a long range hunting rifle, Coyotes to Elk, ranges to 1000 yds, landscape: Eastern Montana.

After a good bit of reading I decided to try the 111 LRH in 300WM, planning to use 208 AMAX or 210 Nosler ABLR. Figured if the stock rifle wouldn't shoot as well as I liked I would rebarrel with a match barrel and try again, I think I'm there......

I bought the Rifle, checked the barrel/stock seating and retorqued the action screws (and have checked them all along). I mounted a Bushnell ET6245, 6-24x50 on Warne Steel base and rings. Have repeatedly checked for tightness.

Broke barrel in shooting/ cleaning routine from precision shooting. Had some 168 bthp, 180 Nosler BT, and 190 Nos BTHP's I used for the first 60-80 rnds to break in barrel, used IMR 7828 and IMR 4831 with these bullets and had some good groups,several 3 shot groups 0.65-0.9". I usually shoot 2 x 3 shot groups with each load for load workup and have switched to the 208 AMAX, H1000, Fed215M, Norma Brass, Oal 3.490 (my magazine will only accommodate 3.50"). My results have been mediocre at best, best groups running 1.3" and up to 2.7" (100 yds)

I have over 150 rounds thru the rifle now and wonder if I should keep trying other combinations to see if I can get something to shoot or just cut to the chase and get the Premium barrel with a match chamber and be on my way. I'm thinking a 26" Criterion with a match chamber and muzzle break, change the recoil lug and barrel nut while I'm at it. I'm sure if I went down to the 168-190 gr bullets I could get something to shoot, well it all ready has, or keep trying the 208/210's with different powders and maybe something will work, but this stuff takes time and the components aren't cheap.

Thoughts?

Regards,
Trapper458

[scooterf79]

Welcome to the forum! We may need a little more info but here goes so far. I dont have any experience in the long range shooting(I live in the east so there's just not much opportunity to do it here...but I dream of it lol) aspect of this topic. Why are you set on using those particular bullets? I assume for the weight aspect at long range, but keep in mind theres the chance that a new barrel wouldn't like them either. I'm not saying anything negative about either bullet, just that some barrels wont shoot certain bullets/powders well where others will shoot everything you feed them. I don't have the numbers in my head but the 190s should carry plenty of energy for deer to 1000, not quite sure about elk. If it were me I would try stretching things out with 180-190gr pills and see how they do for you. You may need to bed and pillar your rifle as well in the chase for accuracy. I just dont know that I would get rid of a barrel thats showing potential, just because it didnt shoot the bullets I planned for it to shoot. The questions can go many different ways and Im sure the other guys here will have better insight than me. Sounds like you are starting on the right platform for a good build. As far as components not being cheap, you may have a lot of time and effort in finding a good 1000yd load. I just dont want you to think slapping on a new barrel, nut and lug will be automatic for a 1000yd rifle. The guys that shoot it alot on here will tell you that. I will note on the Criterion barrels, I built a 280AI last summer with one from Jim @ NSS and it shoots lights out so far. Hope this helped some.
Scooter

[GaCop]

If your dead set on wanting the heavier bullet weights, seems like the answer is REBARREL. No sense in burning more powder and getting poor results.

[Bigeclipse]

If your dead set on wanting the heavier bullet weights, seems like the answer is REBARREL. No sense in burning more powder and getting poor results.

I disagree...he had a couple good groups and it sounds like he is floating around an unstable accuracy node. I had a 3006 doing this. Spent a day ladder testing and bamn ow have a load that shoots .6moa regularly. It was shooting 1.5-4 inch groups prior to ladder testing. I bedded the rifle and that made the groups a bit better but they are much more consistant.

To the OP...have you done any ladder or OCW testing? Seating depth testing? I'm not saying don't rebarrel...just that

[wbm]

this stuff takes time and the components aren't cheap.

Lol. Criterion and Shilen barrels ain't cheap either.

Seems to me that if the rifle is not shooting up to your expectations then you probably should decide what your expectations are and go from there. A hunting rifle is not designed to perform at target/match grade levels. It may but in all likelihood it will not. A new barrel on the same platform may shoot better or it may not.

[Burr]

Try changing one thing at a time, load up some more, and see if results improve. If buying some bullets and powder are hard on the pocketbook, a new barrel of quality takes a bigger bite out of the same pocketbook.

You had it shooting, so it appears the gun is capable of accuracy. Now just need what the combination is going to be for a heavier bullet. Might even be the heavier bullet is the problem and one of a different flavor can be your huckleberry.

But if you just plain and simply want a new barrel, by all means, get one.

You would not be the first person to put the gun back in the safe until some money was saved up to continue on the path of solving an accuracy challenge. We all have to excercise constraint at one time or another, or daily....

[CriterionBarrels]

Have you had the opportunity to run a stony point gauge through that rifle to see how far you are off the lands with those heavier loads? It's possible you might need to adjust your seating depth to accommodate the difference in the ogive. Copper fouling might be another factor that might lead to diminishing performance, but it sounds like you have a pretty solid cleaning regimen down and that it's still running the lighter loads alright. If neither of those are the culprit, we'd be happy to help do our part in helping you get back on target. Feel free to give Jim over at Northland Shooters Supply a call if you wind up going the new barrel route. For technical questions I can be reached at contact@criterionbarrels.com

-Josh

[D.ID]

Stay at least as heavy or go heavier for the long range, BC matters out there.
Definitely double check your seating depth in relation to your rifling, if your making a significant jump with the 208 a-max in order to fit magazine length it can handicap you dramatically.
I had 208s driving tacks at the lands and spraying all over trying to jump for mag length. A new barrel that is not specifically throated for the short overall length will just repeat the problem.
Lots of bullets do jump well so do not discard a barrel based on one bullet not jumping well.
Ladder test at 4-500 will tell allot more than just grouping, highly recommend for long range load development.
If your stock is not a perfect fit for you.... fix it so it is.
" A hunting rifle is not designed to perform at target/match grade levels"...................The worst most destructive misconstrued generalization of all time in my opinion. "Match" level depends on the type of match and "Target level" or precise is very likely if it is properly prepared.
If it is not shooting at least 1/2" or better I won't keep it unless it is just to fix it so it does.
>>>>>>Do not settle for mediocre because it's a hunting gun<<<<<<<<<<<.........GRRR

[Hotolds442]

Well stated!

[jonbearman]

What twist rate is your rifle?

[LongRange]

i shoot a 300wm and have for years. first thing i would suggest is to have someone watch you very carefully as you send a few rounds down range...or better yet set up a video camera and film yourself then go home and watch the video to make sure you dont flinch as your shooting. second pick up a lb of reloader 22 and some CCI250 primers...personally ive NEVER had any luck with H1000 or fed 215s. also as D.ID said you need to know your OAL to your lands...i shoot 208g BTHP hornadys in my 300 and they DO NOT like a big jump. the 300wm is finicky so make sure you keep tight notes on loads/changes and make absolutely sure that you do every thing exactly the same every time.

[Bigeclipse]

i shoot a 300wm and have for years. first thing i would suggest is to have someone watch you very carefully as you send a few rounds down range...or better yet set up a video camera and film yourself then go home and watch the video to make sure you dont flinch as your shooting. second pick up a lb of reloader 22 and some CCI250 primers...personally ive NEVER had any luck with H1000 or fed 215s. also as D.ID said you need to know your OAL to your lands...i shoot 208g BTHP hornadys in my 300 and they DO NOT like a big jump. the 300wm is finicky so make sure you keep tight notes on loads/changes and make absolutely sure that you do every thing exactly the same every time.

Great advice. I know there are dozens of different ways to do testing but on the long range hunting forum...a couple competition shooters suggest I start with seating testing BEFORE ladder or OCW testing. I tried everything on a 3006 and it simply wouldn't shoot. I then tried what they suggested. I followed the berger seating test...these were not berger bullets...and bamn...found a jump my rifle actually did ok with. I then proceeded to do an OCW test and now I have a load shooting consistant .6s out to 500 yards. .6 is not super amazing BUT for rifle I couldn't get a better group than 1.25MOA it is and works perfectly fine for my needs.

I suggest to the OP to do as described above for flinching. If you aren't flinching...check ALL aspects of your rifle. Scope is snug. Barrel is free floated, action is torqued properly...maybe even bed the rifle. It is very rare that a savage barrel shoots that poorly...I think something else is going wrong but that is just my opinion.

[wbm]

a hunting rifle is not designed to perform at target/match grade levels"...................the worst most destructive misconstrued generalization of all time in my opinion.

ROFL. Who knew?

[Trapper458]

Thanks everyone for your responses, a few comments/answers:

--I started this project this past December so I could sort out things for next hunting season. I started this project on this Savage LRH platform because it had many of the features I wanted for a long range hunting rifle, accustock, muzzlebrake, light trigger, adjustable cheekpiece. My going in position was that if I couldn't get this rifle to shoot the way I wanted I would change the barrel to a premium match barrel, so in my mind the first thing I needed to determine was if it would shoot the way I needed it to.
--I want sub moa performance with 200grain+ bullets for long range hunting.
--I'm well aware of the cost of replacement barrels and of components, my point is not can I afford them it is am I wasting components and time searching for results from this barrel that are unobtainable
--I have kept track of seating depths, for the 208 AMAX at 3.490, there is a 0.136 jump to the lands, with the 210 ABLR, 0.114; the 3.490" length is dictated by the magazine length of 3.5" unless I want to use this rifle as a single shot, which I don't.
--I have IMR4350, IMR4831, H4831SC, IMR7828SC, Magpro, and H1000, plus the 208AMAX, 210ABLR, and Berger 215's on order, I decided to stick with one load combo the 208 AMAX and H1000 to see if I could get some reasonable results, the combinations with my components are exausting and I frankly don't have that much range time available to test 18 combinations of bullet/powder. I picked the 208AMAX/H1000 combo because I have read of people having good results with these components in the 300WM.
--My cleaning regiment is good, no copper fouling issues (after cleaning)
--I don't think flinching is an issue, I gave this some thought, but I do my testing alternating 2 or 3 rifles to allow cool down time, and my 308 (soon to be 260 Rem Improved)(another story) and 30-06 are giving me sub moa groups in the same range sessions. I also have asked my buddy to load for me and give me a rifle with a empty chamber on occasion, I notice no flinching when the rifle goes "cleek"
--The rifle twist is 1:10, with an accustock (I don't plan on bedding) and an accutrigger set at 1.5#, factory muzzlebrake, adjustable cheekpiece, the rifle does "fit".
--I have never done seating depth testing before ladder testing, hmmm....I'll give that one some thought....usually get my ladder testing with a close load/load window and then go to varying the seating depth......
--I'm a bit concerned with the jump to the lands with the VLD bullets, I did notice, at 3.490 OAL the 168 Hdy bthp was 0.030 off, the 180 Nos BTip 0.070, the Nos 190BTHP 0.025off. I saw some of my best results, maybe it was the seating depth more than the bullet......problem again is with my magazine length I can go shorter but not longer
--Action screws and scope mounting are checked and double checked.
--Thought about seating some of the 208AMAX/H1000 loads out closer to the lands just to see if they will shoot, but what good will that do me? I want a magazine fed rifle for hunting.


Thanks again for everyone's input, I'll give it a think.....
Regards,
Trapper458

[yobuck]

Trapper 458.
First off i use a larger case than your 300 wm in which im loading 97 gr of retumbo. And i (prefer) using 190 gr
bullets in that gun for long range hunting. Weve killed deer beyond 1100 yds with it with those bullets very affectivly.
A 190 gr bullet at about 3400 fps does an awsome job. If your gun shoots the 190s well thats what id be using and dont
worry about what others say or think. Much of the advice about what (you) should do will be coming from people who never
killed an animal long range. Some might even argue the advantage of a smaller cartridge. Velocity will trump a higher B C
to a certain point. By the time youve reached that point with your 300 wm its over for that gun anyway for hunting.
Im using 190 smks in my gun and they perform very well on animals. You might even try 200 smks in your gun.
For many years i used 200 smks in a 36" barreled 30x378 with a velocity of 3500+ fps. If your getting good groups at 300 yds be happy.
So where in eastern MT are you, as i have rancher friends west of Volborg.

[gbflyer]

Thanks everyone for your responses, a few comments/answers:

--I started this project this past December so I could sort out things for next hunting season. I started this project on this Savage LRH platform because it had many of the features I wanted for a long range hunting rifle, accustock, muzzlebrake, light trigger, adjustable cheekpiece. My going in position was that if I couldn't get this rifle to shoot the way I wanted I would change the barrel to a premium match barrel, so in my mind the first thing I needed to determine was if it would shoot the way I needed it to.
--I want sub moa performance with 200grain+ bullets for long range hunting.
--I'm well aware of the cost of replacement barrels and of components, my point is not can I afford them it is am I wasting components and time searching for results from this barrel that are unobtainable
--I have kept track of seating depths, for the 208 AMAX at 3.490, there is a 0.136 jump to the lands, with the 210 ABLR, 0.114; the 3.490" length is dictated by the magazine length of 3.5" unless I want to use this rifle as a single shot, which I don't.
--I have IMR4350, IMR4831, H4831SC, IMR7828SC, Magpro, and H1000, plus the 208AMAX, 210ABLR, and Berger 215's on order, I decided to stick with one load combo the 208 AMAX and H1000 to see if I could get some reasonable results, the combinations with my components are exausting and I frankly don't have that much range time available to test 18 combinations of bullet/powder. I picked the 208AMAX/H1000 combo because I have read of people having good results with these components in the 300WM.
--My cleaning regiment is good, no copper fouling issues (after cleaning)
--I don't think flinching is an issue, I gave this some thought, but I do my testing alternating 2 or 3 rifles to allow cool down time, and my 308 (soon to be 260 Rem Improved)(another story) and 30-06 are giving me sub moa groups in the same range sessions. I also have asked my buddy to load for me and give me a rifle with a empty chamber on occasion, I notice no flinching when the rifle goes "cleek"
--The rifle twist is 1:10, with an accustock (I don't plan on bedding) and an accutrigger set at 1.5#, factory muzzlebrake, adjustable cheekpiece, the rifle does "fit".
--I have never done seating depth testing before ladder testing, hmmm....I'll give that one some thought....usually get my ladder testing with a close load/load window and then go to varying the seating depth......
--I'm a bit concerned with the jump to the lands with the VLD bullets, I did notice, at 3.490 OAL the 168 Hdy bthp was 0.030 off, the 180 Nos BTip 0.070, the Nos 190BTHP 0.025off. I saw some of my best results, maybe it was the seating depth more than the bullet......problem again is with my magazine length I can go shorter but not longer
--Action screws and scope mounting are checked and double checked.
--Thought about seating some of the 208AMAX/H1000 loads out closer to the lands just to see if they will shoot, but what good will that do me? I want a magazine fed rifle for hunting.


Thanks again for everyone's input, I'll give it a think.....
Regards,
Trapper458


Again, opinions vary. I have chased all this stuff for 25 years. At the end of the day, a good rifle will shoot darn near anything you feed it into 1MOA if you do your job. That is not to say you can't fool around with different loads in a factory gun and get happy with it. Kind of all in what you want to do. It sounds like you have reached your maximum potential without mechanical intervention. Sometimes taking an inch or two off the end and recrown will do it, sometimes a stock replacement with pillar bedding, and sometimes it's as simple as a different scope. The good news is you're out getting it done and enjoying it.

[Crossbow]

You didn't mention your twist rate. Your barrel may not even stabilize the hornady 208 grain well as a stock barrel. Most can't because there is no factory loads that are that heavy so it has to be a rifle that was built for custom ammo like my Savage 110 ba. If that is your case and you want to shoot that heavy a bullet or even the 230gr berger you need a fast twist.

[Trapper458]

You didn't mention your twist rate. Your barrel may not even stabilize the hornady 208 grain well as a stock barrel. Most can't because there is no factory loads that are that heavy so it has to be a rifle that was built for custom ammo like my Savage 110 ba. If that is your case and you want to shoot that heavy a bullet or even the 230gr berger you need a fast twist.

Check my last post, rifle has 1:10 twist

[Crossbow]

That should stabilize a 208. Many are 1:12 and can't stabilize the heavy bullets. If you went up to the. 230 it is even better to have a 1:9 as the 1:10 is borderline. My preference is .010 off the lands for my most accurate loads using both retumbo and H1000. At 200 yds I can follow one bullet into the hole of the previous round pretty consistently. I use the Berger 230's for non hunting situations. Best bullet ever made for the 300 win mag.

[D.ID]

ROFL. Who knew?

My "hunting rifle" was killing rock chucks at 1130 yards on Saturday.