Model 10 .223 (1/4 MOA Load Development)

[Yankee]

I wanted to post this here in case someone else has a model 10 Predator Max .223.

Instead of reposting everything from the thread on my local forum, i'm just going to post the link.

Most accurate bullet so far is the 68GR Hornady BTHP, which considerably out-performs the 75GR in my rifle.

3 shot group at 100 yards .15 MOA
5 Shot group at 200 yards .28 MOA

24.6GR Varget, 2.263 COAL, 2810 FPS

I will be testing BR-4 primers later today to see if i can get the SD in check on my preferred load.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/273687-I-could-use-a-little-help-with-target-analysis-for-OCW

[Texas10]

Nice shooting! Can you tell us a little about your hand loading methods, bullet seating, etc?

I like my model 12 savage. I like the way it makes it easy for a newbie like me to look like I know what I'm doing:smug:, especially with good ammo. My gun likes 50 to 55 gr. V-max, A-max and Nosler CC HPBT. I just bought two different makes of 69 gr. HPBT and am about to load some trial rounds. I keep hearing that this gun really shoots these well. I'm new to reloading so, I'm still reading everything I can get my mouse on and would like to learn from your experiences too.

My best groups so far with Nosler 52 gr HPBT and Hornaday 52 A-max is .115 and .118 respectively at 100 yds. Not bad for an out of the box factory gun. :cool:

[Texas10]

One follow up question. When the discussion centers around OCW methods and "level targets", to what does the word "level" refer to? The target paper being leveled by some means to help insure rifle and scope are perpendicular to gravity, or to all targets being shot at are situated on the same plane?
If the latter, why is it important to shoot with adjustment only in the "X" axis but not the "Z"? Is this a preferred or easier method when using an adjustable shooting rest? Or does changing elevation of POI induce some other possible error?

Sorry for all the questions….just trying to wrap my head around all this while trying to see if there's a bottom to this rabbit hole.

I'm late……gotta go find a hooka-smoking caterpillar.

[Yankee]

Texas,

Nice groups with the 52GR bullets. The 2 groups i mentioned are the only ones i've shot with this load so far. If i can get down to 1/4 MOA consistently for 5-shots at 200 yards i'll be thrilled...this is a factory rifle with a $240 scope after all. I'm using fire-formed Winchester brass (neck resize only). I use a Hornady Auto-Charge to dispense the powder, which has a +/- 0.1 Grain accuracy, so that area probably offers a tiny bit of room for improvement. My SD over the chrony with WSR Primers was about 55, and i tried CCI BR-4s yesterday which produced a SD of 42...still much higher than i see with other powders and the Auto-Charge, but the groups are smaller with Varget. I wasn't behind the rifle yesterday so i can't use that data, but a new shooter was getting .35 MOA for 4-shot groups at 200yds so i know the accuracy is there.

For bullet seating i use a Lee Dead Length Bullet Seater, which seats off the ogive. 2.263 puts me .004"-.005" off the lands. I seat the bullet, turn the case about 1/2 a turn and cycle the press again for added consistency. The OAL will generally be 2.263, but occasionally i'll get one a few thousandths short or long due to bullet inconsistency. The important part is that the ogive is in the same place, not the tip of the bullet. I do not crimp bolt-action ammo.

Most charges with this bullet at this depth will produce .4-.6 MOA but for whatever (harmonic) reason this particular charge weight just vastly out-shoots every other charge i've tried. The 75GR BTHPs average .15 MOA larger regardless of charge, so i have stopped using those in this rifle. 75GR A-Max's don't stabilize in my 22" 1:9.

As for your OCW question, i have always taken that to mean targets on the same plane, not necessarily perpendicular to gravity. With OCW you're concerned with group center. As long as all the targets are on the same plane with each other, the results are still valid. If some are substantially (a few feet) above others, it can cause group shifts and void the results.

My testing for this rifle started with OCW, but i basically abandoned that when one particular charge was shooting groups 1/2 the size of the rest.

[homefrontsniper]

Thats slow for 22" barrel and a 68 gr. Bullet. But accuracy is first!
I get 2800 m.v. out of 16" and 69 gr. SMK and Tac. Powder. Maybe speed them up and you will get lower SD ???

[homefrontsniper]

Thats slow for 22" barrel and a 68 gr. Bullet. But accuracy is first!
I get 2800 m.v. out of 16" and 69 gr. SMK and Tac. Powder. Maybe speed them up and you will get lower SD ???

[homefrontsniper]

Oops?

[Texas10]

Yankee,

Sound like we're both incorporating a lot of the same loading techniques resulting the same good results. Your model 10 and my model 12 share the same twist and same short action. Barrel harmonics will be different of course so a "Goldie Locks" load for you will probably not be as good for me. But to share a little about why I am so happy with my Savage, I'll tell you about my new-to-the-sport son who was home from College a few weeks ago. I had spent some time with him on a 22 rimfire, one day over the summer, getting him accustom to how to use a scope, breath control, and squeezing the trigger. He showed great improvement after only an hour behind the trigger.
On this most recent outing, after he shot about 80 rounds of 22 rimfire, I put him behind my model 12 BVSS at a 100 yd target. I showed him how to set the gun up in a natural point of aim using sand bags front and rear, (see link below if interested) how to use the accu-trigger, and let him shoot. His first 3 shot group was about 1.5 inches. His second was .75, and his third was three overlapping holes measuring .312 shooting a 53gr V-Max over IMR 3031, CCI400 primer and Federal brass neck sized only.
It made me feel immensely proud to see him listen, apply himself, and improve his skills so quickly. And the Savage made it seem so easy!

Today I'm loading some Nosler 52 gr Custom Competition HPBT and some Hornaday 52 gr A-Max, both over 8208XBR. Next week when he's home I hope to have a terrific load for him to try at 100 and maybe even 200 yds.

I hope you're enjoying yourself as much as I am with this newfound sport, Yankee. Now, maybe if I take the rifle Crappie Fishing…...

Here's the link,

http://snipershide.scout.com/forums/5535-stupid-questions/13306828-getting-started-in-precision-rifle-shooting-guide?s=541

[Yankee]

Thats slow for 22" barrel and a 68 gr. Bullet. But accuracy is first!
I get 2800 m.v. out of 16" and 69 gr. SMK and Tac. Powder. Maybe speed them up and you will get lower SD ???

At the max loads (and slightly over max) i'm getting mild stickiness in the bolt with Varget. It get's moderate with faster powders and heavy bullets.

I'm sure i could squeeze 2900 or so out of it without it complaining, but i'd rather not go beyond that with the 68GR bullet.

You must really be pushing that load to get 2800 out of a 16" with TAC.


Yankee,

Sound like we're both incorporating a lot of the same loading techniques resulting the same good results. Your model 10 and my model 12 share the same twist and same short action. Barrel harmonics will be different of course so a "Goldie Locks" load for you will probably not be as good for me. But to share a little about why I am so happy with my Savage, I'll tell you about my new-to-the-sport son who was home from College a few weeks ago. I had spent some time with him on a 22 rimfire, one day over the summer, getting him accustom to how to use a scope, breath control, and squeezing the trigger. He showed great improvement after only an hour behind the trigger.
On this most recent outing, after he shot about 80 rounds of 22 rimfire, I put him behind my model 12 BVSS at a 100 yd target. I showed him how to set the gun up in a natural point of aim using sand bags front and rear, (see link below if interested) how to use the accu-trigger, and let him shoot. His first 3 shot group was about 1.5 inches. His second was .75, and his third was three overlapping holes measuring .312 shooting a 53gr V-Max over IMR 3031, CCI400 primer and Federal brass neck sized only.
It made me feel immensely proud to see him listen, apply himself, and improve his skills so quickly. And the Savage made it seem so easy!

Today I'm loading some Nosler 52 gr Custom Competition HPBT and some Hornaday 52 gr A-Max, both over 8208XBR. Next week when he's home I hope to have a terrific load for him to try at 100 and maybe even 200 yds.

I hope you're enjoying yourself as much as I am with this newfound sport, Yankee. Now, maybe if I take the rifle Crappie Fishing…...

Here's the link,

http://snipershide.scout.com/forums/5535-stupid-questions/13306828-getting-started-in-precision-rifle-shooting-guide?s=541

I completely understand that, glad you could have that experience with your son.

I took a person shooting who has never been behind a rifle, gave her a bolt action .22LR and had her shoot a few groups at 50yds.

Then i gave her my AR with a muzzle brake and had her shoot a mag to get her used to the noise and a little blast.

After that came a quick talk about trigger control, cheek weld, breathing, eye relief, etc.

Her first group was 4 shots in 3/4" at 200 yards, with 2 holes in the 3/4" bullseye and 2 just outside. I was dumbfounded.

She really had no idea that the first group she ever shot was better than any group most of the guys at my local range have ever shot. I had to try to quantify how good .35 MOA really was. Granted, she had decent hardware and a decent hand-load to help her out, but she still had to do her part.

She pulled a couple of the shots on her second group and ended up a little over 1 MOA...still a lot better than most of us have managed our first time behind a rifle.

Having that experience with a new shooter was definitely worth the hours of load development.

I'm looking forward to shooting my own groups with BR-4 Primers. I think it will be a slight improvement. If i do my part it should be close to or under 1/4 MOA consistently for 5 shots at 200.

[jonbearman]

Varget is not the endall powder in every rifle. Perhaps you should try benchmark, h335, blc-2, h322 and even rel15 and there are others. The es of 55 is high and I have had mine in the single digits using benchmark. Good Luck.

[Yankee]

Varget is not the endall powder in every rifle. Perhaps you should try benchmark, h335, blc-2, h322 and even rel15 and there are others. The es of 55 is high and I have had mine in the single digits using benchmark. Good Luck.

No certainly not, but it's the one thats consistently on the shelf at local shops. Rel 15 is usually around also, but h322 and benchmark are hit/miss, and i never see h335.

H322 shows pressure signs early with the heavy bullets and never produced the level of accuracy that varget does. I love it for 55gr and under though.

Maybe ill give Rel 15 a shot. ..i hate to commit to a powder that isnt consistently available, and i dont want to buy bulk or pay haz mat fees for testing.

[homefrontsniper]

At the max loads (and slightly over max) i'm getting mild stickiness in the bolt with Varget. It get's moderate with faster powders and heavy bullets.

I'm sure i could squeeze 2900 or so out of it without it complaining, but i'd rather not go beyond that with the 68GR bullet.

You must really be pushing that load to get 2800 out of a 16" with TAC.



I completely understand that, glad you could have that experience with your son.

I took a person shooting who has never been behind a rifle, gave her a bolt action .22LR and had her shoot a few groups at 50yds.

Then i gave her my AR with a muzzle brake and had her shoot a mag to get her used to the noise and a little blast.

After that came a quick talk about trigger control, cheek weld, breathing, eye relief, etc.

Her first group was 4 shots in 3/4" at 200 yards, with 2 holes in the 3/4" bullseye and 2 just outside. I was dumbfounded.

She really had no idea that the first group she ever shot was better than any group most of the guys at my local range have ever shot. I had to try to quantify how good .35 MOA really was. Granted, she had decent hardware and a decent hand-load to help her out, but she still had to do her part.

She pulled a couple of the shots on her second group and ended up a little over 1 MOA...still a lot better than most of us have managed our first time behind a rifle.

Having that experience with a new shooter was definitely worth the hours of load development.

I'm looking forward to shooting my own groups with BR-4 Primers. I think it will be a slight improvement. If i do my part it should be close to or under 1/4 MOA consistently for 5 shots at 200.

No not pushing it . All rifles are not the same, its a DPMS SWEET 16 . You could get 3000 m.v. ez with 22". 20" ARS get 3000 m.v. with 69 smk and Tac. and very clean burning. I have used varget.. AR COMP . E-swip and to slow . Then i pulled out the Tac. Can cover 5 shots with the brass @ 100 Yards.

[Yankee]

No not pushing it . All rifles are not the same, its a DPMS SWEET 16 . You could get 3000 m.v. ez with 22". 20" ARS get 3000 m.v. with 69 smk and Tac. and very clean burning. I have used varget.. AR COMP . E-swip and to slow . Then i pulled out the Tac. Can cover 5 shots with the brass @ 100 Yards.

Whats the charge weight on that load?

[GaCop]

Varget is not the endall powder in every rifle. Perhaps you should try benchmark, h335, blc-2, h322 and even rel15 and there are others. The es of 55 is high and I have had mine in the single digits using benchmark. Good Luck. +1!

[homefrontsniper]

Whats the charge weight on that load?

Ok. I will wil bite...25.5

[homefrontsniper]

No. Problem in my rifle, no flat primer,, no E Swip,,,primer pockets good,,,, 25.0 got 2730m.v. same accuracy.
Tac is amazing powder.

[Yankee]

Ok. I will wil bite...25.5

Lol, yeah i knew your load would be a bit beyond the manual lol.


No. Problem in my rifle, no flat primer,, no E Swip,,,primer pockets good,,,, 25.0 got 2730m.v. same accuracy.
Tac is amazing powder.

That's the important part. I haven't used TAC, but my rifle generally starts to get bolt-stick around or slightly over published max, especially with faster burning powder. I can comfortably go over max with the slower stuff.

I haven't started working with my AR for an accurate load yet...was planning to this weekend if i don't have to stomp through another foot of snow.

[homefrontsniper]

Yep. Sick off snow.
Load up some.223/5.56 green tips. Lol....

[Cyclops]

Great discussion.

I bought a Model 12 .223 VLP DBM with the 26" 1:7 twist barrel for my 15 year old son to learn to shoot FTR.

With 80 gr A-Max projectiles, 24.7 gr Varget (ADI2208) in Norma cases it shoots well out to 900 yards and will do 1000 yards if it isn't too windy. This combination groups well and is competitive against .308 rifles in FTR. Ballistics almost identical to a .308 up to 1000 yards.

A great learning combination with little recoil that suits his slim frame.
More economical to shoot than a .308

[eddiesindian]

Been using varget and Hornady 68s for close to 20 years. Great combo