Remington .223 optimal powder burn rate Q.

[Texas10]

OK…..Stepping on a land mine with this question BUT…..using my handy dandy IMR RELATIVE BURN RATE chart and reading every thing I can on optimal powders to use in a bolt action .223, I see that most of you very experienced shooters prefer powders with burn rates that fall in the middle to third quarter of the this chart. The opinion expressed that caught my eye and is the primer for this conversation was that IMR 3031 was generally considered to be a bit fast burning for the 223 cartridge for optimal accuracy.
However when using this chart, I see IMR3031 is ranked 78 while a very well regarded .223 powder (VihtaVouri N133) is ranked 79, while CFE223 is ranked 103 out of 145.
So I pose this question not to flame or embarrass anyone, but instead to gain some valuable knowledge from you more experienced shooters so that my next powder purchase…should any come onto the market before the Zombie apocalypse arrives, would be a little more intelligent.

For shooting in a varmint barrel model 12, what and why is a good powder for 100 to 300 yards target shooting, not necessarily competition shooting?

Oh, and since I am here in Austin Texas, let's add some high ambient temps and humidity to the equation to represent average summer conditions.

Thanks again for all your help and willingness to share your vast knowledge with this still "wet behind the ears" newbie.

…...CLICK….:o

[scope eye]

Burn rate and bullet weight go hand in hand, so we need to know what bullet you plan to use or at least bullet weight range, speaking of which bullet weight goes hand in hand with your barrel twist rate, so we need to know that, and that concludes our class for today.:smug:

Dean:smug:

[Steelhead]

I use powders between xterminator/2230 and 4007ssc in 223.

Varget and 8208XBR are the best as far as temp stability I've tried.
Xterminator is awesome with lighter varmint bullets.

[Texas10]

Sorry for the omission, Scope Eye. I am shooting a 26 in varmint barrel Model 12 BVSS with a 1 in 9 twist and currently have these bullets: Hornaday V-Max 53 gr, Sierra 55 gr. Blitzking, Nosler Custom Competition 52 gr HPBT. I've also shot 50 and 55 gr, V-Max and will use them again.

Ooops, there's the lunch bell...

[scope eye]

Varget, CFE223, Win748, H380, RL15.

Dean

[earl39]

With that weight range of bullet BLC-2 will also work well.

[darkker]

Texas10:
If you are truly concerned with Texas temps, don't use Varget. Everyone "Knows" the marketing hype Hodgdon shoves down their throat, but no one reads or studies apparently. "Extreme" properties are such under specific conditions/cases. H335/Bl-c(2)/748 all come from the same parent powder, 748 just has some copper cleaners & was the BR choice in the 222 for a VERY long time; those are all much more stable in the 223, than Varget. Seek out studies done by Dr. Denton Bramwell, several of his papers are on RSI's website.

Unfortunately a burning rate chart is only just a SWAG at best. BR's change with case capacities, etc. AND doesn't help you with progressivity. People choose powder based upon popularity mostly.
If you look at Hodgdon's burn rate chart H4350, RL-17, AA4350 are all together; look how different they are in the Creed.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-26-20-33-14_zpskz7cqnti.png
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-26-20-37-11_zpsedfmoixz.png
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-26-14-36-09_zpsv6lwcels.png
Now an example of how progressive powders burn over a longer period, they are much more table top in their curve. You won't hear about this in a BR chart.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2015-01-11-14-00-36_zpsrz6rkepr.png

[Texas10]

Very impressive, Darkker! You've apparently got access to some very nice equipment to produce those charts. Jealous I am… BTW: what caused the delayed ignition in the last chart…assuming I'm reading it correctly?

I went online again today ( I check every day) looking for powder and actually found some available :) . Powder city and Natchez must have got some shipments in. I ordered more 8208 XBR, some TAC and some N133. All seem to have a good reputation in the .223.

I also loaded up some IMR 3031 and 53 gr. V-Max in 5 round groups starting at 2800 fps and up to a max load of 3400 fps (30 rounds total) to see what works best for tight groups at 100 yds. All were loaded .020 off the lands. Brass cleaned and sorted by weight and length, powder weighed by hand using balance scale. I got some good groups last week comparing IMR 3031 and IMR 8208 XBR all loaded to 3200 fps. I'll do the same with some 8208 and see if I can find the "goldie Locks" load each powder and bullet combo.

Next trip to the range should be educational :)

[243LPR]

I prefer H335,IMR4198,TAC and CFE. But then I never load any bullet over 55 gs. Mainly 40 gr Vmax in the bolt and 50-55 gr in the AR.

[darkker]

Texas10,
You are reading it correctly, and we don't know. MZ5 & I haven't been able to figure it out, but it is real. That is the output from the Pressure Trace.
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm
System will cost about as much as your last rifle.

[maxl]

H335 is my go to powder for 223, also had some good luck with reloader 15

[Berger.Fan222]

There are a lot of great powders in .223 Rem because it is such a versatile cartridge. On paper, Varget seems a bit slow for bullets under 70 grains, but in practice, we've seen it work very well anyway.

H4198 is our second choice when Varget doesn't work well for a specific bullet which is rare.

[Texas10]

243LPR, I traded to get some 50 gr V-Max today, I've shot them before using a case full of 4320, but they only shot so-so groups. Probably because I did none of the prep work in the case like I do now, so a new load will at least be educational.

I like the heavier bullets simply because I can load closer to the lands. Can't do that with 40 and 50 gr.

So here's the $64.00 question; Does loading at optimal jump spacing improve groups more than higher velocities improve spin stabilization? Or did I just ask another land mine question…..:stupid:

[Berger.Fan222]

243LPR, I traded to get some 50 gr V-Max today, I've shot them before using a case full of 4320, but they only shot so-so groups. Probably because I did none of the prep work in the case like I do now, so a new load will at least be educational.

I like the heavier bullets simply because I can load closer to the lands. Can't do that with 40 and 50 gr.

So here's the $64.00 question; Does loading at optimal jump spacing improve groups more than higher velocities improve spin stabilization? Or did I just ask another land mine question…..:stupid:


Unless you're shooting a heavy for twist bullet that is only marginally stable, shooting bullets faster only has a very small effect on spin stabilization.

When we work up loads, we work them up in 0.5 grain increments in .223 and then pick the load that is the most accurate, regardless of whether the velocity is maxed. If we need more accuracy, then we tweak the OAL in increments of 35 thousandths. That step is seldom necessary.

[Jimeg]

I'm from Houston, so I understand shooting in hot weather. I've tried several different powders, but keep coming back to Varget. Several months ago I did eight different loads each with H335 and Varget. The average group size for the H335 was .82" and .53" for Varget with the smallest group being .32" with Varget. My Model 12 BVSS really likes 69 SMK's, although this test was done with 55's.