Hexagonal Boron Nitride...HBN review...

[LongRange]

not sure if this is the right section but here we go.

so ive been doing a lot of research on HBN barrel and bullet coating plus my buddy gave me a big scoop full of the 0.5 micron HBN last saturday so i decided to give it a try in my 260...i was going to wait until i got my new barrel to try it but thought why not try it now to see if its all its cracked up to be and also if and how its going to effect things so that if i do use it in my new barrel ill have an idea of what to expect and where to start with loads. this stuff is very slippery and super fine..when you touch it and rub your fingers together then wipe your fingers off you can still see the powder on your fingers and your fingers are very slick...i know as fine as it is you shouldnt touch it as it can get into your body through your pours but i dont think it can be any worse than anything else ive had on my hands in the last 30+ years roofing.
the benefits of using HBN seem to be many according to what ive read and heard...but im more of a find out for myself kinda guy and dont really believe most of what i hear and less of what i read on the net. so like i said the benefits are less copper fouling so less cleaning,less friction which is or can be a double edged sword as less friction means less velocity(ive read 25 to 80fps loss using HBN)but in theory less friction means less heat..to get the velocity back youll have to bump up the charge so IMHO its a wash as far as less heat. ive also read that you can be 99% sure that the first round fired will be your true POI for your next sting...ive also read that some of the varmint guys are claiming a slight increase in accuracy. 2 of the biggest things for me are if it does work it will mean less cleaning and ive also seen barrel life calculations that say HBN can add 1000+ rounds to the life of the barrel...im just telling you guys what ive heard and read and will tell you my thoughts as i get started with all of this.

needless to say ive just about got everything ready to start this weekend...i spent about 3 hours last night making sure my barrel was as clean as it could be as it needs to be down to metal before coating with HBN...from everything ive read to coat the barrel you mix 1tsp of HBN into 16oz of 91% alcohol,shake it up well dip a patch in the solution and run it down the barrel from the muzzle end...why the muzzle end?im not sure but im guessing because it goes against the grain and coats better...i ran 2 patches from the breach to the muzzle allowing a few minutes to dry in between and than ran 2 patches from the muzzle end in kind of a slight scrubbing motion..the first patch was hard to get through but the other three slid right through.
monday night i coated 100 140g hornady bullets...ive read you can use a vibratory tumbler but best results are with a rotatory tumble...i added about 700 stainless BBs,2tsp HBN and 100 bullets to a mason jar and tumbled for 45mins in my rebel 17....i dont think i left enough air space and have i bigger jar i will use to tumble again tonight for 20 more minutes...the bullets are coated but i think they can look a little better than they do.

like i said i will get started this weekend and report back with my thoughts on all of this....now a few pics.....

last wipe out solvent patch after scrubbing with bronze brushes and 2 soakings in bore foam...id say its pretty clean...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-24.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-24.jpg.html)

coated bullets....

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-46.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-46.jpg.html)

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-46.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-46.jpg.html)

coated next to naked bullet...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-23.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-23.jpg.html)

the strange brew...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-48.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-48.jpg.html)

this is kinda what the inside of the barrel looks like....

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-47.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-47.jpg.html)

[yobuck]

I hope it does whatever it is your hoping it does for you. Not very long ago, but maybe longer than i think moly coating was being tossed
around as being a wonderfull thing to do also. To the point almost that i felt somewhat guilty because i wasent doing it.
But now im not hearing much about it anymore. Ive even had guys offer me good deals on their coated bullets.

[LongRange]

still a lotta guys using molly but its a dirty process...ive thought about molly but never tried it for that very reason. from what i understand if you dont like the HBN you just clean to metal at run a few alcohol soaked patches and its pretty much gone. im not expecting much but ive got a lotta data shooting naked bullets to compare it to. i think the biggest thing i dont like is the velocity loss and not that im a velocity hunter but because it will effect accuracy....it will keep me busy for awhile and it didnt cost me anything to try so we will see...plus if it dont work out im not chasing my tail when i put my new barrel on.

[Berger.Fan222]

I've messed around a bit with moly and HBM coating. I could never really see any resulting benefit, and it was a lot of extra fiddling, so I don't coat bullets any more. Somewhere I read that some folks a lot smarter than me tested the idea of whether these coatings really reduce friction, and they found that they don't.

[LongRange]

yeah thats kind of what im expecting as well but the chrony will tell a little...and i hear ya on the extra fiddling....loading is becoming a chore now LOL.

[yobuck]

...loading is becoming a chore now LOL.

Beats carrying shingles up a ladder though right? lol

[LongRange]

Beats carrying shingles up a ladder though right? lol

im starting to wonder LOL.

[LongRange]

i just finished re-tumbling the 100 bullets im going to start with in the larger jar and they look much better...they had plenty of room...i could tumble 200 at a time in the new jar maybe more. one thing i noticed is the first jar had a slight ammonia smell and i think i read some where that if HBN gets moisture in it will have an ammonia smell...going to have to do a little research and see if i can find out...i didnt clean the BBs or my bullets so i think ill dump the BBs and clean a new batch and also clean the jar and my bullets next time...i just dumped everything into the new jar and tumbled. when i tumbled the first time the HBN basically just wiped off the bullets now after 20mins in the larger jar they have a kind of clear white coat on them after wiping them off and you can see they are impact coated...trying to pick one up off the floor is fun LOL.

the larger jar..its a little taller but much bigger around...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-49.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-49.jpg.html)

bullets before wiping down...you can see i used needle nose pliers to get them out as you cant hold on to them well enough to get them out of the jar...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo-19.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo-19.jpg.html)

i think the blue towel is making them look kinda blue but they actually look like they have like a clear white coat on them...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-49.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-49.jpg.html)

[LongRange]

well im not sure where to start here so bare with me on this post fellas.

first i got a new top for my lee collet die because i blew the top off the first one by over camming...i didnt follow the lee instructions because i knew they wouldnt work with my redding press...i found a great article on how to set up a lee collet die that ill post latter in hopes that a mod will make it a sticky...but being me i decided that the die would size better if i set it a little tighter and that lasted about 35 rounds before it blew the top off...i have it set now just like the article says and it just BARELY over cams and the neck WILL NOT size any less no matter how deep you go with the die...cheap lesson learned.

now...all necks have been just cleaned up by turning to get a consistent neck thickness of .013 and then size with the lee collet die to .286 which would be .002 neck tension which was exactly the same as when i seated naked bullets last weekend that ALL seated at .005 of the lands. well this morning when seating bullets my seating depth was all over the place from 2.053 to 2.074 and im not sure why...2.062 off ogive is .005 off the lands and yes i adjusted all bullets to .005(all bullets bearing surface measured prior to seating)so im not sure if it was from using several cases to adjust the collet die,the HBN being a little gritty or the bullets being impact plated by tumbling in HBN(also gritty) but i have a 100 cases in the rebel 17 getting clean right now and the collet die all set up to size .002 so if i get the same seating depth issues in the morning i think ill be done with the HBN as i dont need the added hassle of seating depth issues as my reloading has already gone from an enjoyable hobby to a second job LOL!!!
i had a riffle basix SAV2 in this riffle(260 rem target action)that i loved...until i changed the factory bolt body and head to a PTG...the PTG is a HUGE up grade that im VERY happy with...BUT...with the PTG body and bolt head i can not get the RB trigger adjusted to where i like it and get the bolt out of the riffle...its either the trigger has a little creep(bolt comes out)or perfect trigger(and the bolt is VERY hard to get out)so i decided to do a little work to the target trigger and put it back in and it makes me wonder why i bought a trigger in the first place. i took the target trigger apart and chucked the trigger pin in a drill and cleaned it up with 1000 grit sand paper then polished with 2500 grit sand paper...i also cleaned up the pin hole through the trigger,the trigger/sear area and the sear in the same manner minus the drill and all the contact points involving the trigger. i then heated all parts with a hair dryer to 115deg and coated all parts with an HBN/alcohol solution thats used to coat the barrel and this trigger is smooth as glass now.

since i was basically back to square one with load development i thought id try a few different primers and glad i did as you will see...several things that effected todays groups...first the trigger was a little tighter then i like...thats fixed...second i think i woke up on the wrong side of the bed LOL as EVERYTHING was getting on my nerves...third i my chrony was acting up....at one point one of the sun shades just popped off...i thought id shot one of the rods but there was no impact marks so im not sure what happened there...also at one point the chrony started reading errors which said 1 or 2 didnt read shots(goes back to the wrong side of the bed thing)...i also got a 108FPS and a 147FPS different ES in two groups but ill let you judge that when you see the groups...wind was also a factor as it came up from left to right at 5-15mph...

this was a 1 hole group with naked bullets...1 thru 3 in first hole 4 and 5 ?

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-51.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-51.jpg.html)


again 1 2 3 close 4 and 5 ? but 108FPS???
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-25.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-25.jpg.html)

this is going to be a hard group to beat as its is exactly what im looking for as far as FPS...
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-52.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-52.jpg.html)

now this is interesting and i will shoot tomorrow and hope it holds together as this is when my chrony popped the top off one side and i was ready to punch someone in the mouth LOL...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-26.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-26.jpg.html)

this was 147FPS difference??? im thinking chrony error???

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-52.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-52.jpg.html)

[sharpshooter]

You need more neck tension.

[snowgetter1]

Why not just have the barrel nitrided? I have had two that wear treated and shoot 100-200 fps faster after nitriding with the same loads. On is a 243 wssm, I still have, the other was 243.

[yobuck]

Ever consider buying another gun and trying that Black Hills match grade ammo? lol

[LongRange]

You need more neck tension.

you think so? ive had my best results at .001 to .002 but i do have a few under sized decapping pins on order from lee...the stock pin is .262 so i ordered .261 .260 and a .259 so ill give it a try.


Why not just have the barrel nitrided? I have had two that wear treated and shoot 100-200 fps faster after nitriding with the same loads. On is a 243 wssm, I still have, the other was 243.

because this is something i can do myself and if it dont work out no biggy but i may try the nitride some time sounds interesting.


Ever consider buying another gun and trying that Black Hills match grade ammo? lol

no...2 guns is 1 to many for me LOL! i cant imagine have more than a couple to load for as much as i shoot.

[LongRange]

i was a little side tracked yesterday when i was trying to post and forgot a few things...first my barrel seamed to run a little cooler...second im about 99% sure that the HBN reduced pressure as when i first shot the 100V at 42.5g was flattening the primers pretty good and 43gs they were flat...at 43gs yesterday with the HBN the primers still looked good...also when i first shot the hornadys with the 100V 42g was averaging right at 2840FPS yeterday the same load was averaging right at 2775FPS.

i loaded up 30 rounds this morning and had the same seating issues as yesterday...i took a case sized the neck and seated a naked bullet and it slid right in smooth as glass so im not sure whats up with that...maybe because i tumbled the bullets twice? maybe to long? i will try tumbling a few bullets a little different next time and clean the bullets and BBs and see what happens and if i still have the seating issues im do with the HBN.

5 of the primers at 43g yesterday...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-51.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-51.jpg.html)

[yobuck]

When you say (you seated a naked bullet) do you mean 1 right out of the box untreated? If so what else could it mean other than no neck tension?
What else could it mean regardless of what was done to the bullets? Could it be that even though youve turned the necks on your cases in order to
make them uniform, they still arent uniform enough to give you the results your expecting? And the treatment your using is making that situation more evident?

[LongRange]

When you say (you seated a naked bullet) do you mean 1 right out of the box untreated? If so what else could it mean other than no neck tension?
What else could it mean regardless of what was done to the bullets? Could it be that even though youve turned the necks on your cases in order to
make them uniform, they still arent uniform enough to give you the results your expecting? And the treatment your using is making that situation more evident?

Yes an untreated bullet and No I don't think it has anything to do with neck tension as the necks are the same the difference is the treated bullets....and I'm not sure if it's from the HBN or from being tumbled in BBs to impact coat the bullets or a combo of both I just know that an untreated bullet seats into the neck with no issue and the coated bullets are gritty....like seating a bullet with sand on it for sake of a better explanation. Now I'm not saying I don't need more or less tension I'm just saying that I measure every neck before and after sizing...a loaded neck is .288 a sized neck is .286...this is measured with calipers and no matter where on the neck I measure it's the same which tells me they are pretty close...maybe not perfect but close enough. When I set my die to seat 2.262 of the ogive with uncoated bullets it seats ever bullet to that with the coated bullets 2 will seat perfect then one at 2.270 then the next 1 at 2.245 so I have to adjust ever time to get them seated the same...maybe I'm wrong but if it was a neck tension issue I think it would happen with uncoated bullets as well.

[sharpshooter]

You still need more neck tension. Toss the Lee collet die and use a full length sizer.

[yobuck]

Well there is an answer, it just depends wether its worth the effort to find it. It sounds as though it could be as simple as aceing the treatment.
At least i never heard these type stories about moly coating which im of the opinion does pretty much the same thing.
But im curious about the distances you shoot. Is there a normal distance you shoot regularly, and then on occaision really attempt airing it out?
Or are you really attempting to air it out every time you shoot?

Notice i edited my post after posting due to seeing Sharpshooters responce.
I bought a collet die one time because i screwed up a bunch of expensive 378 brass by taking too much off the neck and that way i salvaged the brass.
Fact was nothing needed to be taken off. I full legnth resize every peice of ammo i load, then try every case thru the gun before i take it hunting.
Im told, and he would know, that some benchresters also full legnth resize their cases.

[LongRange]

well after shooting today im done with the HBN coating as its just not worth all the added hassles and especially with the seating depth issue...i did a search while i was waiting in between groups and found a post on the hide where a guy was saying he had the exact same issue with HBN and to the point that he was getting deformed bullets when seating them.but using the same brass,bullet and neck tension the uncoated bullets seated with no issues. also youll see in the pics of the groups from today that something went south...and yes everything is a 100% on my riffle and id say i was about as on my game as i was yesterday and the conditions were close enough to the same other than the wind but that should not of effected groups this bad.
HBN may be the greatest thing since ice cubes for some but for me its just not working so im going to clean my barrel and go back to naked bullets.

the 2892 is the round in the yellow...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-53.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-53.jpg.html)

once again the slowest shot is in the yellow...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-53.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-53.jpg.html)

the 2784 shot is in the center of that mess...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-27.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-27.jpg.html)

[LongRange]

another mess LOL...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-54.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo1-54.jpg.html)

ive got nothing for this group other than WTF???

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-54.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo2-54.jpg.html)

another WTF LOL...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-28.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo3-28.jpg.html)