Need help identifying 223 case bulge

[HiTekRedneck]

So I'm still fairly new to reloading and I've found that my brass is getting a strange bulge about 1/4" up from the case head and maybe 1/4 - 1/3 way around the case. The shiny spot between the two arrows is the lower lying part, looks like the last little bit of the case isn't coming into contact with the chamber walls. It is faintly evident in once fired brass, but twice fired brass it is clearly seen and felt. It measures .0065" thicker, is that even enough to worry about or degrade accuracy any? Some pieces are worse than others though. Rifle is a Savage Model 11 w/ factory 223 sporter barrel. Neck sized only so far w/ Lee dies. I'm using 23.4gr H322 w/ Remington brass and 13.4gr Blue Dot w/ Winchester brass, both loads are doing it although the Winchester brass doesn't look as bad. Could my chamber be a little out of spec? I also noticed that most flyers had a worse bulge than the rest in a group. This is my first 223 rifle, so not sure what to expect fired brass to look like, this could be completely normal. :-\

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w125/HiTekRedneck_album/firearms/brass.jpg

[trappst]

You didn't mention what bullet weight. Where did you measure the .0065" figure? Case growth in that range just forward of the head is way too much.

I think we may need some expert opinions on this one.

My first thoughts would be too much pressure, slightly oversize chamber caused by reamer wobble. I'm no expert so I'll leave this one for the gunsmith type fellers!

[tdnichols]

Have you fired any factory loaded rounds? I would do that and if you have the same indicators; pack it up and send it to Savage. You could do a chamber cast and see what it tells you.

[Fjold]

Use the "Macro" option on your camera for close up photos.

[HiTekRedneck]

Yeah sorry for the fuzzy pics, got lazy and just used my iPhone. Here are some better pics. Bullet weight is 55gr Nosler ballistic tips far from the lands, CCI 400 primers. Factory PMC and Remington ammo show .0030 - .0040 growth. Caliper zero was set at the green line, measurement was taken at the red line.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w125/HiTekRedneck_album/firearms/brass1.jpg

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w125/HiTekRedneck_album/firearms/brass2.jpg

[dcloco]

Looks like you have an oversized chamber.

...and a rough finish as well...judging by the shiny lines on this photo:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w125/HiTekRedneck_album/firearms/brass1.jpg

[HiTekRedneck]

Crap, thats what I was thinking. How common of a problem and how serious is this? Seems like it wouldn't be good on the life of the brass and might eventually cause a case rupture? Guess it needs to go back.

[trappst]

Yep, definitely needs to go back! New brass should show very little expansion just above the case head where you measured.

Call Savage and explain the situation. If possible have them arrange for pickup so you aren't out the shipping costs.

[HiTekRedneck]

Thanks for the help, I was pretty sure it wasn't suppossed to look like that, but being my first .223 and Savage rifle I wasn't 100% sure. Bought it at Bass Pro and they agreed to take it back, but they don't have any more in stock....so I pay the difference and get to upgrade to a Model 12 ;D

[HiTekRedneck]

Got the bad rifle taken back and picked up a new 12 FV ;D. One last question, can I FL size the brass shot in the other gun and try to save some if the bulge isn't bad enough? Firing it again should even it out, or will it have a weak spot? Most of the Remington brass I think is too far gone, but the majority of once fired Winchester doesn't look too bad.

[dcloco]

With the pics of that brass, I would not use any of it. Put it in the junk brass bucket and be safe.

You can use the paper clip method - open a paper clip up, sharpen the end to a fine point, reach inside the case and see if you are having the beginning of case seperations yet.

Or.....

Cut a case open with your dremel....see if the brass is thinning at the bulge.


Or....toss the brass, save wear and tear on your dies, new rifle, and YOU! :)

[Uncle Jack]

+1 Trash it!

It ain't worth XXXXing with. There's a lot of new brass for sale for $25.00 a hundred and a lot of good 1 time stuff around here if you just ask.

uj

[HiTekRedneck]

At least I didn't have that much brass shot in that rifle yet, so I'm not too broken up about loosing it. I'll just take it to the scrap yard and turn it back into $ to buy more with. Really don't want to mess me or the new rifle up by using it. Have been buying new Winchester at Bass Pro for $21 /100, which isn't too bad, but I wouldn't mind finding some good once fired for cheap. Might need to head over to the classified section sometime.

[dcloco]

Need to be careful of 1x fired.

Rules:

a - it had BETTER be 1x fired
a.1 - and NOT out of a machine gun, of any kind

b - same headstamp - don't start mixing brass - different case volumes

I have several 223 AI's that I made, so I keep seperate brass for each rifle. Hence, I have RP, RORG, WIN, BHA (black hills - winchester), FC, and some LC. Actually looking for some other brands, just because.

RORG - royal ordinance radway green - is Australian military brass. Good stuff. LC might be a touch better. RP is good. Win is good. BHA is Win. LC is good - but not ALL lots of LC is good. The new LC is made by Federal. SOME of the FC (federal) is good....some...not so good.

[HiTekRedneck]

Thanks for the info, will definately add it to my notes.

[tammons]

Case expansion should be under .002.

Just posted this link on another thread.

http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Measure%20Pressure.htm

[HiTekRedneck]

Got out to the range yesterday with some PMC factory ammo to sight in the new rifle and reloads to start working on. Didn't get any measurements, but the cases were showing the same expansion in the same place as the old rifle was. Showed the brass to some of the "old salts" at the range and they said it was normal, just FL size it and go on. So I'm thinking either A) I'm very unlucky and got another bad rifle, maybe they used the same reamer on both rifles? or B) its a normal thing to happen on these rifles? I was really wanting to just neck size for the first couple of loads, but can't see how that would be possible since it would need to be FL sized to get rid of the bulge. What puzzles me is that the expansion is only 1/4 to 1/3 of the way around the case. ???

[Tbob]

Don't worry about it. I've seen several rifles that do this. I've got a 22-250 I shoot quite a bit that does it. No degredation on accuracy or brass life. And you don't have to f/l size it everytime. I neck size till I get stiff bolt closing and then f/l size and bump the shoulder .002". Usually get about 5 firings between f/l sizings.

Shoot it like you stole it......... ;D

[tammons]

I would look all the other brass signs too.
Maybe you just have a sloppy chamber, IE a bit too big.

More expansion on one side of the case sounds iffy, but I saw that some on my 6.8 AR brass with hot loads.
I would get one sided expansion ridge until I got way up in pressure then I would get a ridge all the way around.
Probably the case was slightly weaker on one side.


If you dont see a distinct ridge you can feel with your finger I would not worry about case pressure so much, especially
if the primer is not as flat as a pancake and no brass flow into the ejector hole, but you really dont want to let it get that far.

Your case expansion will probably kill your brass life though.

Question, why are you running 13.5 gr of bluedot ??
I settled on 12 gr and at 12.5 I was getting flattened primers.

Your H322 load is only running at about 50k.

[HiTekRedneck]

Finally some good news :) I was probably a little bit too paranoid over the whole thing, but like I said, I wasn't really 100% sure if it was normal. Now if this crazy Oklahoma spring weather will cooperate I'll hopefully get to put some more rounds through it next week.

Thanks for the pressure info tammons. I did the OCW test on the blue dot loads and all the way up to 13.9gr it only showed just a little bit of primer flattening, but the edges were still a little rounded. Actually looked a little better than some of the primers on factory ammo I've shot in it. Thats not to say that it might be just a little hot or that the next can of powder will be of the same potency. The new rifle has an accuracy node around 13.2gr and 13.8gr, will hopefully narrow that down next trip to the range. I really like the blue dot loads, but have found that with the wild temperature swings in Oklahoma it affects velocity/pressure/accuracy too much for my liking. Started a day at the range in the lower 80s and finished in the upper 50s, up until that point my load was very accurate, but as it got colder, accuracy fell off big time. If I do keep working on it I may wait till the summer (starting at a lower grain to avoid pressure problems) and work up a load then since our temperature will be mostly stabilized to the 90*-100* range. The H322 loads have thus far lived up to their claim of temperature insensitivity and remained accurate all day.

Here are some pics from my last range trip, all were shot at 100yds. #5 and #6 are H322 loads, going to try 23.8gr as the OCW load. The flyers are due to my not letting the barrel cool down, it wasn't burning hot, but it was causing accuracy problems. I figure if it is still that accurate when hot, that will be a good load. #27 is one of the blue dot loads I was working on, probably a little hot, but not seeing signs of too much pressure other than the very slightly flattened primers.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w125/HiTekRedneck_album/firearms/tgt1.jpg

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w125/HiTekRedneck_album/firearms/tgt2.jpg

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w125/HiTekRedneck_album/firearms/tgt3.jpg