Problem at the range - Need help - Headspace Issues?

[mjphawk]

Short Story
I finally got by brand new Savage FCP HS Precision out to the range. I was shooting Federal Gold Medal Match and had the bullet get stuck in the lands. When I opened the bolt, the cartridge and bullet separated sending powder all over. I was unable to clean it out at the range and it ended my day at the range. I am unsure if I have an issue with 1) overall length issues with the FGMM, or 2) the factory set the headspace too short on the rifle.

More Detail
I certainly would not have expected factory ammo to jam in the lands, especially the reputation FGMM has for match grade consistency. The accuracy of the FGMM was excellent and I was very pleased with the results, but am concerned about high pressure if the bullet is being seated into the lands (not to mention the face I can't unload the firearm without shooting the round). I figured the shoulder of the case should stop a factory round well short the point where a bullet seats into the lands.

I was hand feeding the round and not relying on the magazine to feed. There were a few times earlier in the day that the bolt handle seemed a little stiff getting it pressed down. Not being overly familiar with the gun I didn't know if this was normal or not so didn't take much note. I am guessing it was resistance against 1) the shoulder of the casing, or 2) bullet seating into the lands (more likely).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Wildboarem]

If you can I would measure the OAL of the remaining rounds and see if they are within specs. I'm sure someone here might know what that is or it can be deduced from a reloading manual. What bullet was it? I don't think it would be a headspace issue or Federal is loading to close to lands. Headspace is measured in .001, factory ammo should be off at least .01 I would think.

[jonbearman]

Was there definite resistance when closing the bolt?

[loneranger04]

I'm using handloads in my 12 LRP so I can seat the bullets back of the lands but am having stiff bolt close on new Lapua brass. Neck sized once fired brass is even stiffer. That's what got me back here on this forum to see if others are having this problem also. I tried to set the shoulder back with my body die however didn't get enough lube on the case and stuck it tight. Waiting for the PO to deliver my new body die and I'll try again. Marking a case with magic marker I noticed that I'm getting contact out at the very edge of the shoulder. From what i'm reading this isn't an unusual problem. Every chamber is different so I'm guessing that these may be a little tight. I hope that is the case and I can push the shoulder back a little and have it fit better. Still I hate to full length size every time but whatever works. I tried my go-gauge and have no problem closing the bolt so most likely just a tight chamber.

[jonbearman]

Why not tap the stuck case out of the body die seeing as the top is open and you can put a pretty good sized pin punch in there to drive it out.

[jonbearman]

To the original poster, do you have a headspace gage to check the headspace? Secondly do you have a seater die so you could seat the bullet alittle deeper in the case to see if the stiffness is just the fact that the bullet is getting pushed deep into the riflings. You can take a sharpie and ink up the bullet and the whole shoulder and chamber it and carefully remove it in a safe place to see if the bullet is jammed really deep or slightly which tells me you have short freebore which means you have to seat deeper or send it back to savage for a new barrel.

[rjtfroggy]

I agree with jonbearman take a few measurements first and check the head space. IIRC this is not the first post on this problem do a short search.

Loneranger04 two things first put the die in the freezer over night and then try and pull the stuck case, or RCBS sells a stuck case remover but you can make your own with a drill, a tap, a bolt(about two inches long and a spacer about 3/4" thick. drill out primer hole tap some threads trhough and then tighten the bolt down against the spacer. Usually it will pull the case right out.

[loneranger04]

Thanks for the advice guys. I've tried the stuck case remover which makes it impossible to then use a punch and drive it out. Wish I would have tried the freezer trick.
OP it's not uncommon for savages to have a short throat but I'd be curious if the stiff bolt close was all in the bullet being seated into the lands or if you, like me, are having trouble with the case shoulder.

[J.Baker]

Thanks for the advice guys. I've tried the stuck case remover which makes it impossible to then use a punch and drive it out. Wish I would have tried the freezer trick.
OP it's not uncommon for savages to have a short throat but I'd be curious if the stiff bolt close was all in the bullet being seated into the lands or if you, like me, are having trouble with the case shoulder.

In the future, please be polite enough to start your own thread for your own issue/problem/question rather than hijacking someone elses - especially when your issue has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic.

[mjphawk]

Thanks all for the input. I don't yet reload so don't have all of the equipment to seat the bullet deeper or bump the neck back a little further. I will have a full set of reloading gear by the end of the year but had not planned to purchase a headspace gauge for a factory rifle. I purchase the Hornady overall length gauge and bullet comparator and will be taking some measurements once it arrives. I took some measurements with the tools I have right now.



The case that got stuck

loaded and ejected easily
has a case length of 2.0065 (max case length per Hornady reloading manual is 2.0150).
I don't have a headspace gauge but the best measurement I could get from

the base to the top of the neck was 1.7270 which is slightly over the published 1.7110
the base to the bottom of the neck was 1.5600 which is exactly equal to the published value






I tested the fired formed FGMM

5 out of 6 closed easily.
The fire formed brass that was a little stiff seems to measure completely within specs (2.0110, 1.7100, 1.5600)





I also measured the remaining unfired rounds in the box (15 rounds) and they were all under the max C.O.L. with an average of 2.8000-2.8010 (max C.O.L. per Hornady reloading manual is 2.8100).




I also got a box of Lapua brass I have to see if the cases loaded easily. In 10 cases only one was slightly stiff on bolt close.


I guess I might just have a gun that has extremely tight tolerances. My primary concern is with safety if it is slightly below specifications. I certainly would not have expected a factory round to have jammed in the lands. I have 55 more rounds of the FGMM that I can shoot through. If I notice a sliff bolt close I can try opening the bolt up and see if it is lodged but this seems like a pretty crude method for testing. I can also try the sharpie method but will have to wait until I can get back to the range since I don't want to be loading live ammo into the chamber in my house.

Jonbearman - I cannot say for sure if there was resistance closing the bolt on the round I experienced problems with.

Any and all further input is appreciated.

P.S. Clearly each forum has its protocol but I don't mind the partial high-jack in this case. It drew in a few more views and some additional input.

[J.Baker]

Gotta remember that the FGMM ammo uses long match bullets, so it's not unheard of for them to jam into the lands on a factory chamber. Typically factory chambers have longer than normal lead-in and freebore, but as the chamber reamers wear down over time the freebore will be less. Savage stops using reamers before the freebore gets to actual SAAMI spec, but again, we're talking about some of the longest bullets for the caliber here in the FGMM ammo.

Having the bullet jammed into the land shouldn't post a safety risk with a factory load - in most cases. Even if it does lead to pressure signs, the pressure will still be far below anything that would cause a catastrophic failure. In fact, many handloaders deliberately load their bullets to touch or slightly jam into the lands. You'll notice if the jam rounds up the pressure as the bolt will be harder to lift after firing, but it won't do any damage.

You said you bought some Lapua brass, so I take it that means you're looking to reload. If you already have dies, you can simply seat the FGMM bullets a little deeper so they aren't jamming into the lands if it will put your mind at ease.


As for the hijack, it's a matter of general forum etiquette and respect for others threads.

[mjphawk]

Thanks J. Baker. I do plan to get into reloading soon. Not too concerned with the round jamming into the lands a little so long as there is no danger to doing so. I went back a looked at the casings and it does appear I was starting to get some high pressure signs. Doesn't appear to be to critical levels (no extractor mark, notably heavy bolt lift, blow by) but the primers are somewhat flattened. Given that the gun is fairly new, I don't know if this is "normal" or not. I've attached a picture of the primers of the spent cases.

The good news is that I shot my first (sub?) MOA group with the gun with the first 5 shots after a 20 round break in period with cheap ammo (1,4,5,5,5 shots/power clean cycles). I definitely pulled the shot to the left but am still pretty happy and hopeful both myself and the gun get more accurate with time.

I guess the biggest remaining question is does this warrant sending back to Savage or should I be happy I got a good shooting gun/barrel and leave well enough alone. I suppose when using the long rounds I just know I need to fire the gun to unload it?

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m508/spearch/Savage%20FV-SR/4F0D8E8C-8778-4674-8155-63A2A75891C0.jpg (http://s1129.photobucket.com/user/spearch/media/Savage%20FV-SR/4F0D8E8C-8778-4674-8155-63A2A75891C0.jpg.html)

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m508/spearch/Savage%20FV-SR/51E4D32F-47F5-4D4B-A0AC-E9E5838A65D8.jpg (http://s1129.photobucket.com/user/spearch/media/Savage%20FV-SR/51E4D32F-47F5-4D4B-A0AC-E9E5838A65D8.jpg.html)

[loneranger04]

Well the gun is going to shoot. That's the good news.

[mjphawk]

Well the gun is going to shoot. That's the good news.

So I guess that's a vote for keep it and work with what I have?

Any feedback on how bad the pressure signs on those primers are. They don't look too bad to my untrained eye but I would appreciate input from someone more experienced.

[loneranger04]

That doesn't appear to very severe pressure issues. It looks like you are getting some cratering on the primer but, from what I've been reading on line it appears that is a problem with the savage bolt face. I'm having the same issue. As far as primer being flattened, I don't see those as being overly flattened. Some of flattened primers depends on brand, how soft the primers are. You'll need to keep an eye on it when it warms up outside. Keep your ammo shaded and continue to watch for pressure signs.

[mjphawk]

I got my overall length gauge delivered today and took some measurements which explain quite a bit:

Max OAL to ogive = 2.2160-2.2165
OAL of FGMM to ogive = 2.2260 - 2.2335

The FGMM loaded around 0.0100 to 0.0175 into the lands. I guess as long as I don't get any signs that I am over max pressure I will keep shooting it and keep an eye on things. When I get the reloading gear I will do some load development to see what produces the best results with regards to length. I am thinking that it won't take too long until throat erosion lengthens the chamber enough to reduce the potential for issues.

[earl39]

One thing to remember is that FGMM has a rather hefty crimp on the bullet so trying to seat a bullet deeper could crater the shoulder instead of pushing the bullet deeper into the neck. Just a little FYI

[skypilot]

I had a Factory FGMM fail to chamber in a Stock Rem 700 about a week ago.(10/24) The gun was new and I was trying a few rounds(Nosler Accubonds, Fed GameKing and Fed GMM 168 SMK.) It would not allow the bolt to rotate down.

[CharlieNC]

It sounds like you may have figured out that headspace and jamb length are two different things. Since your fired brass chambers easily the headspace is likely ok; you can confirm this by adding clear tape (confirm .002" thickness); one strip should chamber well but two strips should be tight, thus headspace in the .003" range is typical for factory. On the other hand Savage 308 throats are frequently reported "short" so the jamb and bullet in the lands situation is a limitation, and when you start loading you can determine the best bullet "jump" for your rifle. I suggest you get a headspace comparator to use in your length gauge so you can size your brass consistently going forward and avoid problems; simply setting up a die according to the directions does not assure this otherwise.

[mjphawk]

Thanks for the input CharlieNC. Appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I purchased a Lyman Reloading Headspace Gauge (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002RJURSM/ref=ox_ya_os_product_refresh_T1). The brass drops into the gauge and should be be flush with the bottom. I suppose the weakness is that it relies on an eyeball measurement of flush and I won't have an actual measurement of how much long or short.

I don't want to spend money unnecessarily, but with reloading I want to have good gear so I can be safe. Is a headspace comparator necessary equipment or does the headspace gauge accomplish the same?