Must tell on myself

[RyanG]

I have been working on my son's 260 for quite sometime now. Here in the last few weeks I have been really trying to get a load developed so we can go elk hunting here in Colorado on the 1st of November. So the rifle is a Savage package gun with the 22" sporter barrel. I replaced the plastic stock with a Boyds that had the length of pull shortened, installed a Rifle Basix Sav-1 trigger, EGW 20 moa base, oh ya and I bedded the receiver. I still could not get this rifle to shoot anything under an inch to save my life. I had been shooting Sierra 130 grain Gamekings the HPBT bullet. The average group size was 1.5 to over 3" with any powder I tried.

Yesterday I went and picked up some Hornady 140 grain SST's, I would really rather him shoot an elk with the 140 over the 130, and loaded up some test rounds. I also changed scopes out and rings as well because I wasn't seeing any real group so I thought I had an optics problem. To zero the rifle with the new scope I used the 130 grain Sierras. Got it zeroed but it took 10 rounds because it was ALL over the place. With the new bullets I tried Win 760, H1000, H4831sc, and IMR 7828. Well the groups dropped in size dramatically. The Win 760 at 44.5 grains shot at .393 at a 100 yards with a speed of 2822. The H4831sc at 45.0 grains also shot in the low .3's but with a speed of 2634. I jumped the powder up to 45.4 using the H4831sc and fired the first 2 rounds. I was starting to see some pressure signs but not major. However I read speeds of: 2844 and 2857. I could not believe a 200 fps increase with a half grain of powder. I was not going to shoot the 3rd round and was going to take it home and pull it to double check the powder charge. But there were was little pressure sign and the first two rounds were touching. Soooo, yep I fired the third round. Stuck bolt speed of 2842 and the round impacted just outside of the other two. I had to let the rifle cool a little before I could extract the stuck round. Once I got it out the case was split in the middle with a huge dent in the shoulder area. Man I felt like an ass... I knew better than to shoot that third round. As I look back I know that there is no way a half grain of powder will yield a 200 fps increase in speed.

Fortunately there was no damage to the rifle just my ego. Guess a good SAFE ego check is a good thing. Just glad that my son was not there to see it. I am going to settle on the Win 760 for the hunt then think about rebarreling the rifle down the road. This little baby is finicky.....


So be gentle when telling me how stupid I was.... I already know.... but I had to share.....

Ryan

[Luke45]

Glad everything is OK! i had an ego check the other day as well! accidently put a subsonic round in my box of regular 243..... Humbling moments happen!

[chukarmandoo]

So was the third round of 4831 one of only three that you had loaded with that charge? Or did you have more so that you could pull one apart and double check the charge? I've never really got good speeds with 4831, but had good groups with what little bit I've tried. H4350 is so easy to work with in a 260. Absolutely no guess work. I guess thats why its so hard to come by. Hope you have a really good hunt and your boy knocks a big one down!

[RyanG]

I had only loaded up the three at that charge. The book said that I could keep going but it was already going a compressed load so I stopped at 44.5 grains. The only thing I can figure is that maybe I transposed the numbers and put in 45.5 and not 44.5... Havent tried that load still cleaning up the brass from the other day. I CANNOT find H4350 to save my life here... same with Varget

[jhelmuth]

Ryan,

Just a suggestion, but if you try RL-17 I think you'll be really pleased. I use 41.0gr with an SMK 142gr bullet (Lapua brass and CCI BR2 primer) and get 2821 avg MV in my .260 Rem (albeit a bench rifle) and zero signs of pressure (I tried up to 41.5 all without any signs of pressure).

Worth a try in my opinion...

[chukarmandoo]

jhelmuth, rl17 does give really good numbers, but it is just to temp sensitive. I think it can be fine if used in a controlled environment, say where there is no big changes in temperature or strings of fire. But I think Colorado would not offer this.
RyanG, I don't know why H4350 is so hard to get in certain parts of the country? But I have heard this a lot this last year. Here on the west coast I've been pretty fortunate to get it. Not saying that it is easy to find by any means, but I've been able to get it for all my matches and that has been a lot of powder. I do hunt down little shops though that get it. Never in chain stores! Sounds like the win760 is a good load. As good as mine out of 26" barrel. I think your GTG. It is , by the way, easy to mess up when working up a load. Glad nothing was damaged!

[jonbearman]

Powder valley has one pounders of h4350 in stock right now and 1# & 8# jugs of imr 4350 right now.

[LongRange]

jhelmuth, rl17 does give really good numbers, but it is just to temp sensitive. I think it can be fine if used in a controlled environment, say where there is no big changes in temperature or strings of fire. But I think Colorado would not offer this.
RyanG, I don't know why H4350 is so hard to get in certain parts of the country? But I have heard this a lot this last year. Here on the west coast I've been pretty fortunate to get it. Not saying that it is easy to find by any means, but I've been able to get it for all my matches and that has been a lot of powder. I do hunt down little shops though that get it. Never in chain stores! Sounds like the win760 is a good load. As good as mine out of 26" barrel. I think your GTG. It is , by the way, easy to mess up when working up a load. Glad nothing was damaged!

All powders are temp sensitive....I agree some a little more than others but the RL-powders are not as bad as made out to be IMHO. Im in nevada and shoot long range varmint matches as well as a lot every weekend. No matter what powder im shooting from a 50deg morning to an 80deg afternoon I have to drop 1moa at 550+yds and 1/2moa at 330yds. The trick to shooting strings and keeping velocities in check is to not chamber the round into a hot chamber
until your on target and ready to fire. Ivd seen several good shooters not shoot so well because they work up a good load and shoot early when cool and never shoot the same load later when its hot...you probably know most of this but for those that dont take what ever powder your shooting(hogden RL imr) and your crony...shoot the first round check the speed...chamber the second round and wait 20-30sec then fire and check speed...repeat this for 5-10 rounds and I bet every round shoots faster no matter the powder...now try the same test but drop the cartage in but dont chamber it...get on target slide the bolt closed with your thumb and close the bolt(all the while eye in scope cross on target)then fire and I bet your speeds are way closer to the same.

[foxx]

It seems to me shooters from warmer states have a more favorable opinion or experience with "temp sensitivity". What I think they miss is the fact some states (like Michigan) might have opening day deer season temps that can fall anywhere between -5 and 70. Not only that, but we can experience temp swings of 50-60 degrees in a single day.

[D.ID]

I'm in Idaho where we have fairly mild summers and winters. Also have very predictable transitions and still "temp sensitivity" makes load tuning almost useless.
I have given up on anything remotely "sensitive" up to and including rl-17: got a fast, great, tack driving load that scatters like a shotgun when a storm is inbound. Gave up velocity chasing anyway, now as long as it bugholes I don't care if it's fastest or not.

[LongRange]

It seems to me shooters from warmer states have a more favorable opinion or experience with "temp sensitivity". What I think they miss is the fact some states (like Michigan) might have opening day deer season temps that can fall anywhere between -5 and 70. Not only that, but we can experience temp swings of 50-60 degrees in a single day.

it rarely gets -temps here but we do have huge swings...like you 50-60deg from morning to afternoon...i also agree that the RL powders are not the best choice for hunting but for long range target shooting they are fantastic powders if you spend a little with them.


I'm in Idaho where we have fairly mild summers and winters. Also have very predictable transitions and still "temp sensitivity" makes load tuning almost useless.
I have given up on anything remotely "sensitive" up to and including rl-17: got a fast, great, tack driving load that scatters like a shotgun when a storm is inbound. Gave up velocity chasing anyway, now as long as it bugholes I don't care if it's fastest or not.

ive always wondered if part of the issues are due to altitude as well as heat...i shoot RL-17 in my 260 and RL-22 in my 300 and have shot in the snow and in 100+deg temps and the only differences i have are elevation adjustments. my 260 like most will shoot with just about any combo but my 300 is so finicky that ive thought about just leaving it in the hills several times...the only powders it will shoot with are H1000 which will produce clover leaves at 200yds(no matter what you do to it) and RL-22 which will produce 5 shot one hole groups at 200yds.

[tufrthnails]

What is your 300 that shoots well with h1000?

[LongRange]

What is your 300 that shoots well with h1000?

300 win mag...H1000 also shoots well in my 260.

[eddiesindian]

friend if mine has been using win 760 for yrs.
his results are excellant as well.
I think you,ll be pleasently pleased with the propellant (long term)...it may suprise you.

[thermaler]

I have been working on my son's 260 for quite sometime now. Here in the last few weeks I have been really trying to get a load developed so we can go elk hunting here in Colorado on the 1st of November. So the rifle is a Savage package gun with the 22" sporter barrel. I replaced the plastic stock with a Boyds that had the length of pull shortened, installed a Rifle Basix Sav-1 trigger, EGW 20 moa base, oh ya and I bedded the receiver. I still could not get this rifle to shoot anything under an inch to save my life. I had been shooting Sierra 130 grain Gamekings the HPBT bullet. The average group size was 1.5 to over 3" with any powder I tried.

Yesterday I went and picked up some Hornady 140 grain SST's, I would really rather him shoot an elk with the 140 over the 130, and loaded up some test rounds. I also changed scopes out and rings as well because I wasn't seeing any real group so I thought I had an optics problem. To zero the rifle with the new scope I used the 130 grain Sierras. Got it zeroed but it took 10 rounds because it was ALL over the place. With the new bullets I tried Win 760, H1000, H4831sc, and IMR 7828. Well the groups dropped in size dramatically. The Win 760 at 44.5 grains shot at .393 at a 100 yards with a speed of 2822. The H4831sc at 45.0 grains also shot in the low .3's but with a speed of 2634. I jumped the powder up to 45.4 using the H4831sc and fired the first 2 rounds. I was starting to see some pressure signs but not major. However I read speeds of: 2844 and 2857. I could not believe a 200 fps increase with a half grain of powder. I was not going to shoot the 3rd round and was going to take it home and pull it to double check the powder charge. But there were was little pressure sign and the first two rounds were touching. Soooo, yep I fired the third round. Stuck bolt speed of 2842 and the round impacted just outside of the other two. I had to let the rifle cool a little before I could extract the stuck round. Once I got it out the case was split in the middle with a huge dent in the shoulder area. Man I felt like an ass... I knew better than to shoot that third round. As I look back I know that there is no way a half grain of powder will yield a 200 fps increase in speed.

Fortunately there was no damage to the rifle just my ego. Guess a good SAFE ego check is a good thing. Just glad that my son was not there to see it. I am going to settle on the Win 760 for the hunt then think about rebarreling the rifle down the road. This little baby is finicky.....


So be gentle when telling me how stupid I was.... I already know.... but I had to share.....

RyanStupid can happen easily when you let your guard down--and you are being forthright and humble about it by posting--unlike me who some time ago accidentally chambered the wrong caliber ammo in a rifle chambered for a different caliber. I was VERY lucky nothing blew up.

[Wildboarem]

I think temp sensitivity is completely over rated period! I've killed a few Elk with the horrible RL-22. Even if you're a LR competitive shooter it doesn't matter that much and if you have good dope then you should make hits. So, for arguments sake, the difference between 3000fps and 2900fps in a .308 180gr Barnes ttsx is 3.5" of elevation at 500yds. If you miss an Elk because of your "Powder Sensitivity" under 500 yds try archery hunting. ;)

[foxx]

I think temp sensitivity is completely over rated period! I've killed a few Elk with the horrible RL-22. Even if you're a LR competitive shooter it doesn't matter that much and if you have good dope then you should make hits. So, for arguments sake, the difference between 3000fps and 2900fps in a .308 180gr Barnes ttsx is 3.5" of elevation at 500yds. If you miss an Elk because of your "Powder Sensitivity" under 500 yds try archery hunting. ;)

My experience with temp sensitivity has nothing to do with elevation. In the worst case, when going from 20* to 70*, my 25-06 with RL19, the group opens up and I get inconsistency just as if I was using a bad load. I am talking 2 MOA rather than .5. I suppose, in a purely practical manner, shooting 2 inch groups isn't a HUGE deal, but if I didn't care about accuracy and performance, I would merely use factory loads all the time and / or I would not put effort into tweaking my loads to get the most out of them. That's what most hunters do, and that's okay with me. I just enjoy accuracy.

BTW, I am a bow hunter. I love archery. I am an accomplished competitive target archer who excelled at long range outdoor events of various distances out to 90 meters (99 yards). Even then, it was evident that success depended upon precise tuning of equipment and shooting skill. Bow tuning was a process much more involved than what most people think of when they take their bow to a tech and have him tune it at his bench. That kind of tuning works for most shooters at a fixed distance or "close enough" for most ranges from 10-30 yards, but won't cut it in a competitive situation. I suppose most archers consider bow tuning as over rated, too, but they have probably never shot an arrow into a 1/2 inch key ring at 150 yards, either. :)

To each his own. :)

[Wildboarem]

Foxx,
I've had loads do what your describing. Once Ive found a good node it quit happening. If I'm on the edge of a node then I will have problems when temps change, but it's even happened to me with H4350 and H-1000. There's quite a few records held by shooters with IMR 4064/4350/7828, RL-15/17/22/25. I do agree that the more temp stable the easier it be but I'll take accuracy and adjust my dope.

Ryan,
If you load long enough you will over charge, double charge, no charge. It even happens in factory ammo, just look at all the ammo recalls in the last 10yrs. Use a sturdy firearm, wear eye pro and you should live to NOT repeat ones mistakes. Live and learn brother, glad there was no injuries.

[LongRange]

Foxx,
I've had loads do what your describing. Once Ive found a good node it quit happening. If I'm on the edge of a node then I will have problems when temps change, but it's even happened to me with H4350 and H-1000. There's quite a few records held by shooters with IMR 4064/4350/7828, RL-15/17/22/25. I do agree that the more temp stable the easier it be but I'll take accuracy and adjust my dope.


This right here....i agree 100% and have had the same issues with the same powders as well as several others but have grown tired of the powder debate so I just dont argue the fact that the beloved hogden extreme powders are temp sensitive anymore I just smile and nod :(

[Nandy]

Ryan, glad no one got hurt, in the end thats what matter...

I use rl-19 for both my 30-06 and 7rem mag. I hunt with them and I just adjust my elevation as season gets colder. groups kind of stay the same.