Seating depth on Hornady 75gr HPBT in 223 Rem

[OldLobo]

Good Evening All,

Any of you have any experience with the Hornady HPBT 75 grainers in 223Rem? I put together a dummy round which gave me about 1/8" of spare space in the Mag, ran it through and it fed and chambered nicely with no rifling contact noted.

When looking at recommendations however 2.250" was the book so I loaded em up shorter. All good firing, but I have to wonder if I could get tighter groups lengthening the round back up closer to the lands. The setup was 23gr 4064, using Winchester Small Rifle primers. Anything over 23gr with this pill is going to be very compressed using the 4064 from what I can see, the 2.250" seating puts the pill in the case fairly deep. I wouldn't mind trying another .5gr of powder, but it seems not to be feasable with this seating depth.

Any advice from experience on this round? Has anyone seated at 2.375" with good success?

I'm a newbie at reloading, although I've done years worth of reading first, but advice from the experienced is always welcome.

As a side question, are the Winchester primers a little soft as compared to other brands?

Thanks for any info!

[darkker]

If you been reading about reloading for years, I'm confused why this is even a question for you.

Anytime there is a large jump to the lands, there is the potential to have the bullet get off kilter, and cause accuracy issues. Depending upon a gamut of factors, it may or may not materialize.

No two rifles are the same, these are mass produced animals that have been built with tools in varying States of wear. Whether or not your gun likes a given load, and someone else's preferences; are different animals. Start loading and testing for YOUR rifle, and ignore what everyone else has done.

According to a test done early this year (IIRC on cast bullets page), win primers are about the hardest in pistol and large rifle. Don't recall if it was across the board or not.

[OldLobo]

Thank you for the response darker. I have been reading for years as I said, and I do understand the lands to bullet distance relationship. The caveat here is: I have loaded a total of 40 rounds, not 400 or 400000, and have fired only 5 of them. That being said, my comfort level at present goes only slightly farther than "the book" before I get itchy. As this is a bomb being cut loose 1 foot from my face, I tend to err not at all, I went by the book, and sought advice from some experienced folks in here before I went farther. Run of the mill pills in 55-65 gr there's tons of info on, longer tapered heavy match there is not.

My reading on reloading has been largely on the internet. I've seen all kinds of good internet advice on subjects such as how to safely light liquid oxygen on your deck using a trail of gasoline, the proper way to light yourself on fire with rubbing alcohol, tossing lit matches into a box of explosives to keep em stored in a good environment, I could keep going but you get the picture. Most of the true crazies on this board have been removed so, not having a friend sitting next to me with experience or a dad who taught me anything, I am posing the question here. Yup, I'm looking for re-assurance from the old timers.

So back to the first original question, does anyone have actual experience with this 75gr HPBT by Hornady using IMR 4064? What were your loadings if so?

Have a good day

[Jamie]

To answer you question, yes and no.. I have loaded the 75 grn BTHP but not with that powder. So to possibly help I will give you the best info I can.

Reloading manuals are not definite, they are guidelines. The SAAMI spec part is correct but each rifle/situation is different and those specs are there to help ensure that factory rounds will fire in factory chambers and provides that information to you in order to guide you through the loading process for each round. The COAL is there to help ensure your ammo will fit into any rifle correctly chambered for that round. You as a reloader do care about every rifle, just the one you are reloading for; therefore, you tailor your rounds to your rifle as needed.

Seat your bullets out to magazine length if you wish, it will not hurt since you have already noted they were not touching the lands at length. Start with your current load of powder and if there seems to be room to increase then do so if wish. You are getting into an area that you need to start paying close attention to what your rifle tells you when you fire it. As you add powder several things will happen, the recoil will get sharper, the sound of the rifle will start to change, the vibration you feel when firing it will change, you may get cratering around the primer pocket, headstamp may smear, may puncture a primer or get a sticky bolt.

Cratering= not always caused by presseure, could be firing pin profile or too much clearance between firing pin and bolt face.
Smeared headstamp= not good back off
Punctured Primer= really bad
sticky bolt=really bad

[OldLobo]

Thanks Jamie,
What COAL, primer and powder/weight did you end up with just out of curiosity?

[Jamie]

Currently I load them at 2.332" to fit in the Mapul magazines. When I loaded for my bolt I loaded them much further than you are looking at, 2.415". Still didn't hit the lands in that rifle. Powder was Ramshot TAC loaded above Ramshot's max load in both rifles. Current one is .5 grain over published and it seems happy there. The bolt gun was a different animal and preer not list that load as it may even make Dean (Scope eye) nervous.

Ramshot powders are my favorite for any load, if I can find it. I use TAC for .223 Rem and .308 Win type cases and Hunter for just about everything else. Recently had to purchase some H4831SC as Hunter has been very few and very far in between.

[gotcha]

Since you're a novice reloader (we've all been there) will your bbl twist rate stabilize the longer bullet? Not trying to be condescending in any way. The long 75 gr hpbt would require at least an 8 twist to guarantee stabilization. A few reloaders have been able to stabilize with a 9 twist but they are the exception rather than the rule. For what its worth.

[OldLobo]

Hey Gotcha and Jamie,

Thanks for the feedback, I'm pulling the rounds out to 60mm/2.362 as max for the magazine. Seated at this length, they still do not hit the lands and feed well.

The twist is 7 (added blunder/bonus in my opinion courtesy of WalMart, it was advertised as a 9). The rounds I fired were stable, and ran about 1MOA with me just tossing the rifle across the table, no bags or bench. I'm guessing the added length into the lands will tighten this up a bit, at least I am hoping. If successful I'll tinker with another .5gr of powder, but looking at the fired rounds, I'm guessing I'm close to max in this rifle. Good extraction, good feel on firing, primers taking a little abuse though, not quite what would be considered flat, but close, firing pin dimple is not pushed into the firing pin hole, and not pushed back out at all, no crater, so still all good.

I was looking earlier at primer ratings and it looked like the WinSR were a little hot too, so with a max of 24 gr, possibly the Win Primer and 23 gr of 4064 may be tops and I'm ok with that.

Thanks again for the feedback, it was very much appreciated! I think that's the reassurance I needed to be comfortable stretching this load out. I'll post the results up when I have a chance to really wring em out.

Dan

and an added PS: So as not to let anyone think I forgot them, there is one gentleman on the board here who has helped me out and we have tossed load info around, but I did not name him as I'm not sure he wanted to be associated with the newbie, I'll leave it up to him to self ID, but I did not forget the help. I was pretty sure this was a loading he had not tinkered with so posted up to the board with the question.

[gotcha]

You did get lucky with that bbl. twist :) I like to use the federal 205 or 205M for load development. They're the softest primer on the market that I've found. They show pressure signs sooner than CCI or Winchester. Kind of an advanced warning if you will. The alloy of your brass is actually more important. Its smart to take readings of expansion just below the web of the case. Any more than .001" growth is the danger area. Some RL manuals say your growth should be zero for safety reasons. Others say .0015" is max. ..... Keeping your resized case head space in the .001" to .002" range will help reduce bulge below the web also by reducing the tendency of an overly sized case (short head space) to slam against the bolt face when fired. But, you've probably already read all this stuff. Good luck with your project. Sounds like you're having fun! Dale

[sixonetonoffun]

Posted OldLobo load dev progress.
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/ii554/sixonetonoffun/Mobile%20Uploads/18Oct14223development_zpseece85d2.jpg (http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/sixonetonoffun/media/Mobile%20Uploads/18Oct14223development_zpseece85d2.jpg.html)

[OldLobo]

Thanks Sixone,

5 rounds per target, the difference left no doubt which way the load needed to stretch. I think I can fit another mm or two in the length to retest, then tinker with .5gr +/- loads, but it shows promise. Seems to be a bit of "Mauser flinch" in that shooting though leading off to the left ;-) I suppose I could dial it out and cover it up, but I think I'll hold off on that for now.

[Berger.Fan222]

I've tended to get better results through the years with longer loaded rounds in .223 Rem. I suspect there are two reasons. 1) My rifle has a long throat and the bullets like to be closer to the rifleing. 2) I tend to use slower powders that fill the case and the rifle prefers cases full but not compressed.

[sreyemj]

I loaded that bullet to mag length but went to back to the book COAL (2.250) when it didn't make a difference.

With XBR it was running sub MOA consistantly, the most accurate bullet I found.

[OldLobo]

I'll give the xbr a look, right now I have one powder on hand and had load data so used it. I was sure sooner or later I'd need to switch to get more accuracy, but wanted to give it a whirl with the 4064 to get going. I'm assuming IMR 8208 XBR???

Thank you for the info on your experience!

[sreyemj]

I'll give the xbr a look, right now I have one powder on hand and had load data so used it. I was sure sooner or later I'd need to switch to get more accuracy, but wanted to give it a whirl with the 4064 to get going. I'm assuming IMR 8208 XBR???

Thank you for the info on your experience!

Yes, IMR 8208 XBR. 4064 is good too, there are quite a few good powders for heavy .223/5.56 loads. I'm actually a little annoyed with XBR as all of my best loads are at or over max and velocities seemed a little on the low side of published data but could be worked up w/o pressure signs over max (others have speculated that the data is conservative for some reason). Normally I don't like to go over book max.

In my previous post I was working up loads for a 1/8 twist AR and after finding my load I shot three 10 shot groups with the 2.250, max length for pmag (don't remember exactly), and one in between. The shortest shot the best so I left it as is.

It's worth trying a longer COAL though, in other instances it has made a difference for me and is certainly a proven technique.

[SK13R]

I'm a little late jumping in here but I just finished load development with 4064 and 75HPBT's for my .223. My load is over book max, but with the COAL I'm running and slow work up I'm not seeing any pressure signs. I am using about a 7" drop tube and not getting any powder compression as well. Helps that extruded stack better. This is shot out of a stock hog hunter barrel and action. Please work up your own loads, this is just for information.

2.375"ish length. I cant remember for sure what it is off the top of my head.
24.4 gr IMR 4064
CCI 450 Primer
RP Cases
2950 FPS and .64 MOA

[GaCop]

I load 223 for both semi-auto and bolt action. OAL in the semi-auto is dictated by the mag box (max 2.260). For my 223 bolt action and 223 Ackley Improved, I use a Stoney Point OAL gauge to get the over all length to the lands. Most of my loads for the Ackley are jammed between .005" and .010". I don't have access to my load notes right now and can't remember what length I seat the 75 gr Hornady's in my son's bolt action 223 but I got the OAL for his rifle using the Stoney Point gauge too.

[Ryfulman]

I'll give the xbr a look, right now I have one powder on hand and had load data so used it. I was sure sooner or later I'd need to switch to get more accuracy, but wanted to give it a whirl with the 4064 to get going. I'm assuming IMR 8208 XBR???

Thank you for the info on your experience!


cfe223 is the velocity king with this cartridge. I suggest checking it out.