What's NEEDED to measure distance from lands?

[scooterf79]

Hey guys,
Ive reloaded for several years, but have recently started wanting to push the accuracy thing more. Ive always seated my bullets out a bit longer. Id lightly size the top of the neck to where the bullet would hit the rifling and then back off from there just a touch. Then load all of my ammo with that length. Of course that uses the bullet tip which can be damaged here and there and whatnot.
I know theres comparators and overall length gauges and every company has the best there is and so on. I would just like to know whats actually needed to adjust the seating depth from the lands, and the like. Do I need multiple tools or just one or etc?
Thanks!
Scooter

[LongRange]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/570611/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gage-bolt-action

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/459683/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gage-modified-case-308-winchester (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/459683/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gage-modified-case-308-winchester)
The correct cal case

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/231904/hornady-lock-n-load-bullet-comparator-basic-set-with-6-inserts
The correct insert

[n4ue]

If you have a lathe and some hand tools they are quite easy to make.

ron

[foxx]

If you are trying to get by on the cheap, use a small socket wrench socket that is deeper than the exposed end of the bullet and a caliper. All that matters is that you use some kind of metal "donut" so you are consistently measuring from the base of the case to some where near the ogive. Hornady's little jigs are nice, but it's not like you have to measure from a specific spot on the bullets. The objective is to push the bullet into the "donut" and measure from some arbitrary point other than the tip. As long as you use the same "donut" every time, you'll be okay.

[darkker]

Honestly foxxy has you some really good advice.

I just use my calipers and do an OAL. Barely seat a bullet on a sized, empty case. Hand place it in the chamber, and send the bolt home and locked. Pull it out and measure the OAL, get your inertial puller and save the components. As long as you test a few of the bullets to get an idea of how concrescent the ogive is, it isn't any farther off.

[RevM]

Here's the method I've used ... http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-reloading/44357-hand-loading-long-range-3-finding-start-oal.html

Of course that doesn't get you the actual distance to the lands ... it just gives you a max (un-jammed) OAL for a particular bullet. Add in the comparator and you can determine the max distance to the lands.

[scooterf79]

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it. Im not necessarily tryin to get by cheap, just don't want to buy stuff thats not needed. Ill check the links out. Any more input would be appreciated.

Fox, Ill try that socket thing first, I've got plenty in the garage to choose from and that makes alot of sense.
Darkker, I dont seem to notice the tips to be damaged much on say a poly tip bullet, but some of the match hpbt type bullets or plain sp bullets it seems more noticeable. Makes me wonder how much difference a couple of .001s makes ya know.
Thanks again!
Scooter

[LongRange]

Buy the tools you will use them over and over...different bullets and chacing the lands as the barrel burns out.

[darkker]

If the tips are getting beaten up, that is a follower issue, allowing the front of the cartridge to be to low. In that way the nose of the bullet gets bashed by the loading ramp cut, on the receiver.

[foxx]

Initially I dont bother with the fancy rig that you use to find the lands, I do what Darker said because I dont really care how far I am off the lands, I only care it is in the sweet spot and consistent. (Once I find the seating depth that it likes I am measuring off the base anyhow, so what do I care how far I am from the lands? ) But now as I am beginning to maybe burn up some throats I am getting a bit concerned that I dont know where the lands are because I was just roughly judging it with a softly necked bullet. Not knowing how far off the lands I was when I started, it's hard to tell if the throat is eroding because I have nothing to compare it with. I'm gonna start using that contraption for that reason alone.

I am also learning to appreciate being able to measure the shoulder. I would say THOSE gauges are more valuable than the give ones because its more critical to measure from a specific point halfway down the shoulder.

[LongRange]

Interesting....seems to me your load development would be much easier and fast using the OAL gauge rather than guessing....also jamming a bullet into the lands is not the best way to go about this especially with a sized case...I can push a bullet about .003 .004 into the lands with the rod on the OAL gauge so I cant imagine how far a sized case would push it in. The ogive is VERY important because that is where the bullet contacts the riffling...if your measuring off the tip you will never find a consistent load as .001 .002 is huge in a riffle especially if your shooting VLDs.

[foxx]

I use a lightly sized neck off a Lee Collet neck sizing die. There's just enough tension to hold the bullet. If I do jam into the lands, the bullet usually sticks in there because thee is so little tension. What I am trying to say is initially, as long as I can find a sweet spot by test-firing and recording the base to ogive (be it the actual ogive or some other point determined by the socket ) that is most accurate, I don't really care how far away from he lands I am. Also, I don't really care if I am jamming the bullet a little, as long as it shoots well from that point. But, I am also saying that later on I am hurting myself because I don't have a way of measuring how much throat erosion I am getting. However, the ogive is somewhat arbitrary. You don't necessarily have to measure off the exact spot the bullet is large enough to touch the rifling, just a spot on the bullet that is further down than the tip. If you use a socket, for example, you are still measuring from a spot lower than the tip, though not necessarily the exact spot that hits the lands. As long as you use a nut or something that is used consistently, you will always be measuring how deep it is seated. Again, I would like to know where the lands are, though, so I can determine whether the throat is eroding. THAT's the part hat starts to matter. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't care. For some reason I have trouble getting a feel with the modified case and the OAL gage, so I just gave up trying. I will start trying agan, though.

[LongRange]

Ok I gotcha on the lightly sized neck, I assumed you were full length sizing the neck....and I understand if it shoots well doing what you doing thats fine too but what im saying is your load development would be much faster and easier if you know EXACTLY where your starting and write it all down. then as the throat erodes you know exactly where to go. The OAL gauge is not EXACT but its as close to as exact as your going to get and as simple as it gets.
You say the point at which the bullet touches the lands is arbitrary? i will have to respectfully disagree with you on that as that is one of the most important measurement points in reloading for pression shooting. Just to illustrate the importance, I shoot 208g hornadys in my 300wm at .002 it shoots 2" groups at 200yds at .006 it shoots 2" groups at .004 it shoots 5 rounds through 1 ragged hole(if I didnt drink a 12pac the night before)so the ogive and distance to the lands is very much important...like you said your way leaves you chasing loads as the barrel burns out.
The rabbit hole goes deep when you start shooting long range precision...anyone can lob lead but to print small groups EVERY aspect comes into play.

[foxx]

I agree with what you are saying but you are missing my less than important point. The o give does not have to be measured. But SOME POINT on the bullet between where it starts to taper and the tip... Suppose you are talking .308 cart... always use a tool with a .270 diameter hole. Measure the base of cartridge to that spot on the bullet. If you always use that tool you will always be measuring how deep the bullet is seated into the case. You could, instead use a tool with a .28 diameter hole. Measure how far the base of the cart is to that spot... as long as you use the same tool for your next cartridge, they will all be seated the same, though you won't necessarily know how far the base is to the o give, you will know they are all the same distance from the ogive. Another words how do you define ogive? I might say its the point on the taper of the bullet that is .027 inches in diameter. You say its the point on the taper of the bullet that hits the lands. If I always use my tool to measure how deep I seat the bullet, the cartridges I assemble will be identical as yours, as long as you always use your tool to measure with. You use yours, I use mine. The bullet is seated the same depth; our measurements are different. Not important. Just a handy trick to know if you lose your ogive tool. Find something else, measure a cartridge you know is right and continue with the new tool.

[LongRange]

I agree with what you are saying but you are missing my less than important point. The o give does not have to be measured. But SOME POINT on the bullet between where it starts to taper and the tip... Suppose you are talking .308 cart... always use a tool with a .270 diameter hole. Measure the base of cartridge to that spot on the bullet. If you always use that tool you will always be measuring how deep the bullet is seated into the case. You could, instead use a tool with a .28 diameter hole. Measure how far the base of the cart is to that spot... as long as you use the same tool for your next cartridge, they will all be seated the same, though you won't necessarily know how far the base is to the o give, you will know they are all the same distance from the ogive. Another words how do you define ogive? I might say its the point on the taper of the bullet that is .027 inches in diameter. You say its the point on the taper of the bullet that hits the lands. If I always use my tool to measure how deep I seat the bullet, the cartridges I assemble will be identical as yours, as long as you always use your tool to measure with. You use yours, I use mine. The bullet is seated the same depth; our measurements are different. Not important. Just a handy trick to know if you lose your ogive tool. Find something else, measure a cartridge you know is right and continue with the new tool.

I do understand exactly what your saying and I do get your point...and im not trying to argue with you....and I mean no disrespect to you but I just wouldnt use a nut or a socket to measure seating depth but thats just me.

[foxx]

:) Truly, just a friendly, pointless argument... but I'll bet you $100 that your tool is not really measuring from the true ogive. If it does, I'll bet you another $100 that mine doesn't, even though they re both made by the same company. It allows you to measure and make carts that have a consistent seating dept. I also use the hornady tool, but the hole in mine is slightly larger or smaller than yours. As long as I always use mine, and you always use yours, we will always be able to make cartridge that are identical to our wants. The fact is, we don't know for sure if either of ours has a hole that is exactly the same size as the lands in our rifles. It's kind of important to realize that because, if you should lose yours, and you replace it with another, you will likely need to re-measure with your new tool. Otherwise your actual seating depth will change. They don't make those tools as precisely as we might think they do. But it's okay, because it doesn't really matter, until you lose the one you started with or think you can borrow mine at the range and get the same results you got before.

[tufrthnails]

Thanks for the conversation. I just started seating bullets off the lands instead of using the book OAL. This gives me some more insight into what I am actually doing with my OAL and comaprator tools. I just finished loading a Ladder test for 140 gr sst's I was using interlocks. Can't wait to get to the range to see where the sweet spot is. I would love to find that ragged hole load.

[LongRange]

:) Truly, just a friendly, pointless argument... but I'll bet you $100 that your tool is not really measuring from the true ogive. If it does, I'll bet you another $100 that mine doesn't, even though they re both made by the same company. It allows you to measure and make carts that have a consistent seating dept. I also use the hornady tool, but the hole in mine is slightly larger or smaller than yours. As long as I always use mine, and you always use yours, we will always be able to make cartridge that are identical to our wants. The fact is, we don't know for sure if either of ours has a hole that is exactly the same size as the lands in our rifles. It's kind of important to realize that because, if you should lose yours, and you replace it with another, you will likely need to re-measure with your new tool. Otherwise your actual seating depth will change. They don't make those tools as precisely as we might think they do. But it's okay, because it doesn't really matter, until you lose the one you started with or think you can borrow mine at the range and get the same results you got before.

WHAT...so your saying my insert isnt machined to exact specs and wont measure with in a millionth of an inch of the ogive?? LOL!!

I know that these are mass produced as are most tools and you are right that no two tools will measure the same and with use the tolerances will change as well. this is why once a month I check measurements and log them in my load book.
as far as the bets go we could bet or I could just cut you a check and get it in the mail lol!

[justdave]

I use one of these. Quick and simple! http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/sinclair-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod34262.aspx

[tufrthnails]

I use one of these. Quick and simple! http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/sinclair-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod34262.aspx
I like that I was planning on buying another pair of calipers but I may just get one of them.