Really weird groupings of of my savage 111 30-06 -- no idea what's going on, need hlp

[ezmiraldo]

Hey guys, I went to the range yesterday to zero my rifle. The first group (aiming at the center of red cross on the lower part of the picture) seemed OK, but for the second (aiming at the center of the black cross in the upper part of the picture) shots were all over the place.


I've shot from bench and sand socks, in perfect weather conditions. Second group was shot immediately after the first one (with 4-5 mins between each shot to let barrel cool).http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=96587&d=1411523745


What do you think? How could the spread have increased so much for the second group (top black cross)? What could have changed the relatively tight grouping on the bottom to a totally crappy group on the top? I'm totally confused by this...

Here's a link to the picture (http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=96587&d=1411523745) -- in case my embedded image doesn't display properly.

[zippyhuntin]

Well, I can't see your pic without registering, but I'm going to say that loose scope base/rings, loose action screws, or barrel warming up and touching the stock are your most likely culprits.

[tufrthnails]

X2 Check barrel clearance between each shot. I use a Dollar bill but I have heard even more then that is better. I would think loose scope/mounts would show itself in first group.
Edit: I can't see pic, but if you are shooting 3 round groups try 5 round group and it may show up in the first group confirming my submission barrel is heating up contacting stock.

[sixonetonoffun]

tufrthnails advice makes sense. If the scopes not the culprit. Floating the barrel and tang would make sense. In the process of doing this with one of mine thats behaving simular. There was obvious signs of contact at the rear of the tang and the recoil lug needed bedding. Will see next week if my efforts made any improvement. I also soaked the barrel with bore cleaner for a couple hours just to be sure copper fouling wasn't effecting it.

[jonbearman]

What kind of scope do you have sir?

[foxx]

I don't know your cleaning routine, but maybe it needs a good cleaning. Sometimes I get hard carbon accumulating and am not aware of it. Simple cleaning will not touch it. Apache recommended I use a foam cleaner (wipe-out) and let it soak an entire weekend. Black crud came out of what I thought was a clean barrel. Repeated a few times till is came out clean again, always letting the Wipe-out sit in the barrel overnight at least. Eventually it did get clean and shoots as good as ever.

[ezmiraldo]

Thanks guys! I was using 5-shot groups -- it sucks that I can't get the pic to display properly... I'm using SWFA 6-42 scope on one-piece DNZ mount. Checked all bolts immediately before shooting -- all was tight (I use loctite on my scope bolts).

I wonder if my stock is in fact touching the supposedly free floated barrel. The stock shifts and moves when squeezed tight with the supporting hand -- not very stout.

I fired about 100 rounds through my brand new rifle -- haven't cleaned it yet. You think I should clean it at this point to improve accuracy?

[mudpig]

With a brand new rifle, I'm guessing that you probably have a copper mine the last 6-8" of your barrel, which would affect accuracy. But with the sudden shift I would guess that you have an issue with the barrel not fulling floating or the action screws have loosened. Check all screws for tightness, clean your bore, and check for barrel clearance.

[tufrthnails]

Another thing is were you place the forward bag. I had to place my bag under the Mag to get the best grouping and of course I use a rear bag, but if I placed the front bag at the front of the forearm where a bipod would be mounted with my tupperware stock i got really irratic groups.

[MrMajestic]

Recoil sensitivity? Clean that bore also.

[Tex_Hunter]

You said 111 so I'm assuming a package rifle? If so change you rings an bases out for a set of Talley lightweight 1 pieces rings, (base is integrated with the ring so it is way stronger and easier to set up). That's the cheapest option after you check anything that can be for free such as tightening action screws and check the barrel channel for good free float. My package gun could slide 3 business cards all the way bak to the action so I doubt it is that but check anyways.
I had the exact same issue with my 10xp and the talley bases locked everything down, I was so pleased and now they are the only base I use on anything other than tactical rifles. Just put a set on a $1200 Remington varmint rifle to replace a leu pops dovetail mount when I stepped up to a 30mm tube scope so don't let the price make you think they are no good.
Spend some time on google and you will see the same thing "my savage won't shoot good groups or hold zero help!!!" and it's always those cheap bases and rings that savage put on them. Mine looked less quality than some air rifle scope mounts.

[Tex_Hunter]

You said 111 so I'm assuming a package rifle? If so change you rings an bases out for a set of Talley lightweight 1 pieces rings, (base is integrated with the ring so it is way stronger and easier to set up). That's the cheapest option after you check anything that can be for free such as tightening action screws and check the barrel channel for good free float. My package gun could slide 3 business cards all the way bak to the action so I doubt it is that but check anyways.
I had the exact same issue with my 10xp and the talley bases locked everything down, I was so pleased and now they are the only base I use on anything other than tactical rifles. Just put a set on a $1200 Remington varmint rifle to replace a leu pops dovetail mount when I stepped up to a 30mm tube scope so don't let the price make you think they are no good.
Spend some time on google and you will see the same thing "my savage won't shoot good groups or hold zero help!!!" and it's always those cheap bases and rings that savage put on them. Mine looked less quality than some air rifle scope mounts.
Whoops jumped the gun, saw you are using an aftermarket mount and scope. My bad. You may want to still check your mount hasn't come loose but I would bet it's a combination of action screws loose and bag causing the forearm to touch the barrel under pressure. Also with 100rds you probably should give a good thorough clean like others have said. You might want to consider saving some time and putting it into a nice laminate stock like a Boyd's prairie hunter model. $100 for a rock solid stock another $50-100 to pillar and bed would be a very good investment.

[ezmiraldo]

Thanks, guys! I'll work more on reducing my recoil anticipation (and possible flinch), double-check all the screws, and clean out the barrel. Not sure I'm ready to invest money into new stock -- is there any way to alter the current flimsy, plastic stock to make it more rigid and prevent it from touching the barrel?

[tufrthnails]

There are lots of threads on Bedding but youtube bedding bolt action rifle or something like that. I have all the stuff at the house to take my first attempt at bedding I just have to find the time to dedicate to it.
Edit seen several where people have bedding a lamp rod or an aluminum arrow body into the forearm to stiffen it up. I think this is the route we are going to go with my cousin's tupperware stock whenever I can find the time to commit to that one as well.

[Tex_Hunter]

Thanks, guys! I'll work more on reducing my recoil anticipation (and possible flinch), double-check all the screws, and clean out the barrel. Not sure I'm ready to invest money into new stock -- is there any way to alter the current flimsy, plastic stock to make it more rigid and prevent it from touching the barrel?

You could fill all the hollow space in forearm with something like Devcon or some other kind of epoxy, basically doing a full length bed job. Stuff goes for 40-50 per pound no idea if this could be done with one pound or not, and you still have a cheesy look in plastic stock. Wood laminate is tougher and more stable than a lot of "composite" stocks out there, throw in a pair of pillars and bed the recoil lug and you would have a nice looking stock that only something 4-5x as expensive might be better than but not really especially for a sporter rifle.