Looking for Some Advice on 308 Loads

[Luke45]

are the bullets jammed into the lands?

[earl39]

If you want brass that will hold up in a 308 loaded anywhere near hot then Lapua and Lake City are the two best choices. Both have a good strong web and head. Lake City will take more prep for the first time due to being once fired unless you can find some that has been pulled and never fired.
Never take what the book says for gospel. There is only one gospel and Serria, Hornady, Lee or any other reloading book is NOT it. ALWAYS!!!!! WORK UP TO YOUR LOAD.
I agree with Mr Conch, Slow way down, read all you can, find a mentor that knows what he/she is doing and stay as safe as you can and remember each rifle is a an entity unto itself so treat it as such.

[cranebird]

I was using the small Franklin Arsenal scale (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/175512/frankford-arsenal-ds-750-electronic-powder-scale-750-grain-capacity?cm_vc=ProductFinding). I calibrate before each use using the supplied weight and I check that it's zero'ed out every 2-3 rounds.

The loads that shot the tightest group were 44gr, which is 1gr less than the the ones that popped the primer. The 44gr also showed the extractor area slightly. If I'm so far below the max, why is it overpressured? I can even vaguely see the extractor ring with the 43gr loads (for reference- 41.5gr was the minimum recommended load).

What powder weight range do your reloading manuals give for 4064 over a 175gr bullet? Maybe I need to try going below the min until I hit the next "node" for my rifle?

You are not so far below max. when I went to the Hogdon site it listed 41.5 starting and up to max load of 45.6 C which C stands for a compressed load. [b]You do not want anything to do with compressed loads yet while just learning to reload.[b/]My guess is 44 gr was a compressed load or very near being a compressed load as well but I don't know that for sure.

[DanSavage]

44 GR. of the IMR 4064 in a Federal case is going to be a stout load with a heavy bullet, if you plan to get the most reloads possible with your brass you should work around 41.7ish for a Federal case. Like other's have stated Winchester brass has more room inside the case and 44 gr. 4064 probably won't show any pressure signs with Win. brass, you may even get higher velocity from the Winchester case. I ran 44 Varget in Win. case and the 175 SMK netting 2650, got over 12 firings on the brass and I still have the brass saved for a rainy day,, all I use now is Lapua.

[Texas Solo]

Also, in my experience, and I don't know why, 4064 seems to produce more bang than the loading manuals suggest. With Federal and Military cases, using 4064, I am especially careful to start low and work up slowly, looking carefully for pressure signs along the way.

This is my experience as well.
I use 4064 & LC military brass, which took a lot of work to get where I needed it. My findings are exactly as quoted above.
Using just 40.5 4064 and a 168 bullet seated -.005 off the lands, I got a 3 shot group of one hole @ 100. I then put a 200 yard zero on it (1/2" group) and stepped back to 500 meters.
To my amazement, I shot 4 rounds into a 1.896" group. (perfect day, no wind, and I'm sure that I got a bit lucky...but I have the target & witness to prove it)
The 40.5gr, 4064 load is anemic according to the data, but I'm going 2850fps.
LC brass and 4064 is definitely hotter than any book says it is.

[BW64]

My Lyman 49th says 44.0 is max for 175 gn with IMR 4064. Dam I'm using 43.9 with Nosler 168s. Your load is way over max!!! As previously stated start lower & work up. Also get a few different load charts & compare. Is something is way off then don't load it. Call the source! Don't want you to lose a finger or be blinded for life. Also 4064 is more temp sensitive than Varget. Hotter outside temps will give you hotter loads. I know this from shooting in the desert in Vegas.


BW

[Chrazy-Chris]

Thanks for the info everyone. I'm still learning a lot and you guys are definitely helping. I found some winchester commercial brass so I'm going to try another load ladder this weekend. I'll keep you posted. Also, I got the lee universal depriming die so now I can deprime before tumbling brass which should help clean the primer pocket. Finally, I'm going to give my barrel a good scrub with some Hoppes Benchrest Solvent that I picked up locally. Anyone have any experience with it? http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1240424765/hoppes-9-bench-rest-copper-bore-cleaning-solvent-liquid?cm_vc=ProductFinding

[Texas Solo]

The Hoppes benchrest #9 actually does a pretty good job on copper.
Clean the barrel as normal with it, then run a wet patch through barrel and leave it sit a few hours.
Follow that with a clean patch and see what you get.

[homefrontsniper]

Reloder 15 is a good one. ;)

[dryfly74]

Hey thanks for your post on the re-loading. I am knew to it also. It is helping out great.

My question is abouy your stock on your rifle in the pictures. I am looking to change out my stock on my 11 Vt and am having a fun time trying to find one that fits. Can you tell me what yours is and where you got it and how you put it togehter.

[Chrazy-Chris]

Hey thanks for your post on the re-loading. I am knew to it also. It is helping out great.

My question is abouy your stock on your rifle in the pictures. I am looking to change out my stock on my 11 Vt and am having a fun time trying to find one that fits. Can you tell me what yours is and where you got it and how you put it togehter.

It is a Boyd's tacticool. Unfortunately, they seem to be having issues with them splitting (they are laminate). Mine has a very slight crack starting to form so I'm looking at one of the Choate stocks (I've been told they make one for the bottom bolt release). Good luck with it!

[Uncle H]

I could not agree more, others shooters at our club have been chasing my wifes scores for the last few years ( I am sure to get a comment out of that one !) they have been switching loads, switching barrels, trying to debrief her on her tactics etc. She has been shooting the same rifle, the same load etc. I load all her ammo, she shoots brass from Rem,Lapua,Win, she shoots one bullet, one primer, I do not weigh and seperate the brass or bullets, I weigh the powder on a RCBS Charge Master ( when shooting a smaller case like a .223 a half grain will make a big differnce we learned. Like Luke45 said most people run right past the basics and way over complicate the process to the point they get frustrated and mad and even just give up on the shooting. I have also watched guys spend alot of money on a good rifle then sell it cheap beacuse it wont shoot form them and the guy who buys it shoots lights out with it going with basic tactics.

Sorry if I offend anyone, but I a lot of these really intricate reloading practices don't even come Into play unless your top .1% of all shooters, snd are well under the range if human error. in a lot of cases your loosing trigger time and practice by over complicating your reloading process when so many other factors are more important than a bullet weighing .1 gr more than another.

Size, prime, weight powder, seat bullet.

Then turn your seating depth powder charge and neck tension to your rifle

Being able to judge wind, familiarity with your rifle, crisp trigger pull, and tuning the correct load will do one thousand fold more for you than spending 10 minutes per bullet on the loading bench. Now once you start shooting 3" groups at 1000 yards then all that other stuff comes into play.

If you miss judge the wind by 2mph, or your parallax isn't perfect, or it's 5 degrees warmer than you though, then all the litter extra steps you took were wasted.

Guys don't over complicate it, sometimes a bobber and worm is the best bait even though it's boring

[Luke45]

I could not agree more, others shooters at our club have been chasing my wifes scores for the last few years ( I am sure to get a comment out of that one !) they have been switching loads, switching barrels, trying to debrief her on her tactics etc. She has been shooting the same rifle, the same load etc. I load all her ammo, she shoots brass from Rem,Lapua,Win, she shoots one bullet, one primer, I do not weigh and seperate the brass or bullets, I weigh the powder on a RCBS Charge Master ( when shooting a smaller case like a .223 a half grain will make a big differnce we learned. Like Luke45 said most people run right past the basics and way over complicate the process to the point they get frustrated and mad and even just give up on the shooting. I have also watched guys spend alot of money on a good rifle then sell it cheap beacuse it wont shoot form them and the guy who buys it shoots lights out with it going with basic tactics.

Thanks ! im glad someone feels the same way, gotta make the engine run before polishing the bumper ;)

[RichNH]

Like you, I'm shooting a .308. I'm not that interested in very long distance shooting as the range I shoot at has 300 yards max so that will affect my comments some. I'm currently loading 175gr HPMK Sierras on top of IMR 4064 and CCI BR2 primers in FC brass (simply because I had a lot of .308 FC brass). (BTW, I notice that some are referring to "4064" powder while not referencing who makes it, a mistake IMHO). Anyway...

Before trying the following remember, I'm not anywhere near the max charge. If you are pushing your loads then you most definitely need to know what your charge is while shooting at the range and you need to start at the low end and work up, observing your brass as you go. The pics of the headstamps I saw above definitely show signs of to much pressure as others have said.

Given all that...

I noticed that your charges on the box of ammo you reloaded were changed by .5 grain with each string. I did the same thing in mine but after I found the best load I redid the entire process and change the load by .1 grain, centered (of course) around that "best load". That really shrunk the group size and I found a new "best load". I prefer not to know what the charge is in the round I'm shooting when I'm at the range. The idea is that if you know the charge you may subconsciously try harder on a load you think is better OR if you see the loads getting tighter as you progress up the ladder you may subconsciously try harder, thus skewing your results.

As mentioned I'm not loading for distance so I stay well away from the max loads. What I found works in my rifle *at this point* (and I'm far from done) is 38.9 gr of IMR 4064. I load 5 round groups and then record the charge for that 5 round group. The different groups go into small cloth bags (like what you get with the mulling spices) and on each bag I have different letters. So charge 38.5 may get bag H and 38.6 may get bag U. I leave the sheet with the recorded loads home when I go to the range.

When I go to the range I record the letter of the bag I'm shooting on the target, each bag gets its own target. After all the groups are done I go home and record the load on each target then sort the targets by load. You should see a distinct pattern. Any time you tweek anything in the load you can redo this process to see if your "best load" has changed.

I've used this process and it works for me. The only thing is you most definitely should not use it if you are pushing your load. If you're pushing the load you have to take a safer route. You have to know what the charge is as you approach the max load for your rifle.

Currently, I'm getting ready to delve into adjusting the distance off of the lands. Haven't started yet as I don't have all the tools but I'm going with Hornaday's system for measuring the freebore and also measuring the length of the loaded round from the base to the ogive (not the tip which I've found can change measurements by as much as .01" or more (yes, that is 1/100th inch)).

At my last match I found myself alone with one of the good shooters at the club. He's been a career gunsmith and has to be in his 70's at the very least. I asked him about case prep. His advice to me was to concentrate on just a few specific areas during the reloading process. He said the following:

Make sure your brass is sorted by manufacturer and headstamp. Load these in lots, don't mix them.
Trim your brass to a uniform length
Keep your brass in lots so that for a given lot you know how many times it's been shot.
Powder charge has a major affect on the accuracy of the round.
The next thing was distance off the lands that the ogive was seated to, that affects accuracy a lot too. He emphasized that.

He said that a lot of things people do (and I do some of them) really don't make too much difference. He included sorting brass by weight, sorting bullets by weight, cleaning the primer pocket and deburring the inside of the primer hole to get rid of possible burrs. These don't make a much of a difference he said. I deburr the primer hole inside the case and also run a .078" drill bit through the primer hole to insure a minimum size hole. I also automatically chamfer the inside and outside of the neck during the case trimming process because of the case trimmer I use.

Out of 600 points max for the F-Class match we shot in, he shot a 600-44. I, being a mere piker, shot a 578-13 (lost 15 points on the last stage, but still my best performance in a match ever). So I figure his advice is fairly sound.

I've also recently switched from the standard full length RCBS die set I was using with my M14/M1A to a Redding neck sizing die set (since I went from semi-auto to a bolt gun). I've found that using the Redding bullet seating die works better than the RCBS die. Seems it seats the bullets straighter and to a more consistent depth probably because the die doesn't contact the bullet tip during the seating process and because the bullet is held straight by the die during the process due to the design and tight dimensions inside the die itself.

Anyway, figured I'd throw by 2 cents in.

One thing I'm curious about is this. Once you settle on one factor in the load, say powder charge, does the adjustment of another factor (say bullet seating depth) affect the first factor? I.E if I change my bullet seating depth will that require that I revisit the powder charge I'm loading the round with. I'm kinda interested to see how all this works out at the range. But for me that's all part of the fun. :-)

Rich

[copterdrvr]

A military guy on another site had the MSDS sheet for the military "sniper" load manufactured by Federal and is supposed to be the same load as the Gold Medal Match 175 grain load with the Sierra 175 HPBT Match bullet. 41.8 grains of 4064.

The 168 grain FGGM load was 42.8 grains of 4064-both loads considerably below the max loads mentioned and loaded by the original poster.