12 F/TR quality PIC ADDED

[ellobo]

Wes,
In your original post you mentioned that the bore on your barrel was .002 oversize at the muzzle. I wonder what the tolerances are that Savage uses. + or - .003 ? I would love to know. Plus, all the wonderfull shooting barrels mentioned in previous answers to this post were all as accurate as mentioned before they were broken in? Some obviously but I have my doubts about all. I have a feeling a lot of copper remover wqas used before these barrels ever ended up as world beaters which they obviously are. In any event Wes, if you shoot that barrel, I suggest you invest in a jug of copper remover. And I do hope it becomes a world beater in spite of what you may think after reading my posts.

El Lobo and for the record it is really el lobo loco AKA Crazywolf

[scaxeman]

Hey All,

A question for Wes, if you have not shot your rifle yet, try very lightly pulling a very sharp dental pick (or similar probe) over the last 3-5 mm of the bore. I too wondered if the marks were simply left over from the reaming process, and flattened by the button as it was pulled through, and tried this with the only barrel I still have of this vintage. Unfortunately, my barrel has 3600+ rounds through it, so the marks were fairly worn. What I found was that there was less felt texture to the bore than the looks would indicate, this may have been due to the higher round count, so I am curious if this holds true with your new barrel.

Lobo: Probably less copper remover than you'd expect ;D I treat these barrels like most competitive .308 shooters treat theirs (F-T/R, Palma, etc.) that is, they get cleaned every 300 rounds or so whether they need it or not! Most guys I shoot with will not clean at all in the middle of a multi-day match. Aside from a dry Boresnake every few days, I did not clean the rifle at all for the entire 2.5 weeks of the World Championships, and as far as I know, neither did almost anyone else. That first barrel took me ~ 75-100 shots to get a load that I thought would work for me. Is that a "break-in"? Maybe, but I took no special "break-in" procedures at all. As I mentioned to Wes, the barrels that look like those are really a thing of the past. The barrels produced in the last 18 months or so are a night and day difference.

Here's a couple of images contrasting an early barrel pic (not quite as dramatically marked as Wes', although 3600+ rounds through it too) and a barrel I just received from them 4 weeks ago... big difference. They aren't as pretty as Wes' pics though! :)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zt4WGDQKVfs/S7hG9DcSv-I/AAAAAAAAAZw/uKHzuV4p1ag/s640/Fullbore%20National%20Championship%20barrel.jpg This one is my 2007 vintage F-T/R Barrel that won the US Fullbore National Championships.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zt4WGDQKVfs/S7hG9FW2OGI/AAAAAAAAAZ0/_i_4zWhYRlo/12FTR%20Barrel%20zoom.jpg This one was one I got ~4 weeks ago... big difference.



The spec. for bore diameter on the F-T/R barrels is .300-.302". The first one that I received from them I measured at .3015 and it shot like a house afire. The new "Palma" barrels spec. out at .298-.300, a little tighter, but until recently, have only been available in 1:13 twist. After some badgering by the Team Savage guys, they are now developing a "tight" 1:12 barrel (the same .298-.300" bore).

Hope this helps, Happy Easter All!

Darrell

PS. Do I turn into a pumpkin after 10 posts again with the "basic" membership here?

[bluealtered]

By the way Wes, welcome aboard. As you can see there are a lot of people here who will help with any questions/problems you have. I'm glad your going to try it first. I have found that mine shoot better without cleaning all the time once broken in. blue

[beradon]

You got a good one - My Precision Carbines was worse but who knows, yours might be a shooter. Mine wasn't

[Wes_VB]

Finally got to shoot the rifle today.
Took 100 rds to the range 50 of which were 147g FMJBT M80 pulled surplus. My thinking was that these are a steel jacketed copper washed bullet and they would be good for barrel break in.
I am normally not a believer in barrel break in but I thought maybe this barrel needed a little smoothing out.
Fired 5 and cleaned. I did this 4 times but after the first two five round sets the copper was noticeably diminished.
Fired the next 25 without cleaning and then cleaned and used the last five to foul the barrel for the next 50 which were load ladder rounds.
Even after the 25 it took one patch soaked in KG12 for 10 strokes and then a nylon brush soaked in KG for 15 strokes and the barrel was clean.
In short the barrel didn't collect near as much copper as I thought it would.
Didn't really get anywhere on the load development because the wind got up to 20-30mph gusts.
I went ahead and worked through the 50 trying to compensate for the wind. Nothing to brag about for group size as everything was spread along the horizontal for a couple of inches. My vertical dispersion was under .6" though for the best loads. These were shot at 210 yards.
I did find one load that produced an ES of 21 and an SD of 8 so I'll be working around that load. I did see some promise though before the wind got up. The M80s were shooting into about .7" at 100 yards. These bullets have a standard weight deviation of 3.5g and I won't even shoot them in my 03A3 Garand/Springfield match gun so .7" is quite good.
Cleaned the rifle well when I got it home after the 55 rounds and it cleans as easy as any rifle I own.
So....I would say that this barrel is fine. Looking forward to getting loads dialed in and shooting it in F class!

I don't have Dental pic but I did drag the sharp corner of a 1/16" punch down the grooves and you can definitely feel the striations.

[wbm]

Sounds good so far. Bet it ends up being a shooter. ;) Keep us posted for sure!

[scaxeman]

My vertical dispersion was under .6" though for the best loads. These were shot at 210 yards.


.6" vertical at 200 yards is a good start. If you are getting that size group with a bullet/velocity that'll be happy at 1000 yards, you might have a winner. It'd be interesting to see what that group does on a calm day!

Good shooting,

Darrell

[TnTom]

Can't imagine not packing it up and sending it back. Barrel life isn't going to be squat,copper fouling, and carbon build up will be a way of life with that barrel. Savage just doesn't want to throw them in the scrap barrel. That's where it belongs. Pathetic machining.

[borg]

Can't imagine not packing it up and sending it back. Barrel life isn't going to be squat,copper fouling, and carbon build up will be a way of life with that barrel. Savage just doesn't want to throw them in the scrap barrel. That's where it belongs. Pathetic machining.

Did you read the entire thread?

[TnTom]

And just how many barrels have YOU manufactured?


I machined long enough to know when a too'l isnt cutting like it should.

[TnTom]

Can't imagine not packing it up and sending it back. Barrel life isn't going to be squat,copper fouling, and carbon build up will be a way of life with that barrel. Savage just doesn't want to throw them in the scrap barrel. That's where it belongs. Pathetic machining.

Did you read the entire thread?

Yes I did read it all.

[memilanuk]

So you read the part where people have successfully used these barrels in competition, with no undue loss of barrel life or excessive cleaning problems?

[jo191145]

Gee, with all the extra surface area inside that tube life should be extended ;D ;D


Wearing out a barrel has never bothered me. Theres so many options available for a Savage that cost very little compared to just about any other rifle.
I say shootem. Learn from the problems that may or may not arise from any defect. Every savage tube has taught me something. The ones that will not shoot to my expectations have taught me the most. JMO

[Wes_VB]

Gee, with all the extra surface area inside that tube life should be extended ;D ;D


Wearing out a barrel has never bothered me. Theres so many options available for a Savage that cost very little compared to just about any other rifle.
I say shootem. Learn from the problems that may or may not arise from any defect. Every savage tube has taught me something. The ones that will not shoot to my expectations have taught me the most. JMO

Yep that's kinda my thoughts at the moment. For 1000 dollars I have a complete rifle that looks like it will compete with most of the hyper customs that cost hyper money. When I am dissatisfied with this barrel..what am I looking at...$500 for a new barrel and an hours time to install?
;)
Please elaborate on what the non-shooters have taught you.

[range rat]

Both my Savage stainless barrels are nice and smooth(LRPV.204,Fclass 6.5/284). My two blue barrels(BGTV.223,.204 Predator) are FUGLY to say the least. And yes, they are copper/carbon mines big time! Accuracy falls off at about 50 rounds also. My McGowen on the other hand is smooth as glass and comes clean with a few patches with little or no copper. I'm not sure about you guys?? I want my barrels smooth. If rifles came with bore pictures and you pick the rough one. I'll eat my hat!! Matches are one by rifleman, not rifles. The pics are my LRPV and Predator.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n212/455mjd/002-28.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n212/455mjd/017.jpg

[jo191145]

Gee, with all the extra surface area inside that tube life should be extended ;D ;D


Wearing out a barrel has never bothered me. Theres so many options available for a Savage that cost very little compared to just about any other rifle.
I say shootem. Learn from the problems that may or may not arise from any defect. Every savage tube has taught me something. The ones that will not shoot to my expectations have taught me the most. JMO

Yep that's kinda my thoughts at the moment. For 1000 dollars I have a complete rifle that looks like it will compete with most of the hyper customs that cost hyper money. When I am dissatisfied with this barrel..what am I looking at...$500 for a new barrel and an hours time to install?
;)
Please elaborate on what the non-shooters have taught you.



Optimal fouling.
Ever wonder why one 308 barrel might shoot best with R-15 over Varget or vice versa?
Ever wonder why some guys claim to shoot 400-500 rds without cleaning and others need to clean every twenty?
Optimal fouling.
First thing I do with a factory barrel is search for a powder that produces enough carbon to negate copper fouling (with accuracy).
Then I need to determine how long I can shoot that powder without fouling out due to carbon fouling.
When I find the Holy Grail powder that does not accumulate copper or carbon beyond the first ten rds everything is golden.
Not easy but it can be done.
Controversial theory I'm sure ;D

FWIW Just got my first Benchmark barrel in 30BR. Fully smithed ready to screw on a Savage. Damn do they make a nice barrel!!!!
I'll be shopping there from now on ;)

[range rat]

The only thing better then a Savage is a Savage with a custom tube ;)

[Wes_VB]

Both my Savage stainless barrels are nice and smooth(LRPV.204,Fclass 6.5/284). My two blue barrels(BGTV.223,.204 Predator) are FUGLY to say the least. And yes, they are copper/carbon mines big time! Accuracy falls off at about 50 rounds also. My McGowen on the other hand is smooth as glass and comes clean with a few patches with little or no copper. I'm not sure about you guys?? I want my barrels smooth. If rifles came with bore pictures and you pick the rough one. I'll eat my hat!! Matches are one by rifleman, not rifles. The pics are my LRPV and Predator.

Damn I gotta get me a borescope! That is just to cool!

[scaxeman]

Borescopes are your friend! They will fascinate and potentially horrify you at the same time! ;D

[sharpshooter]

When I first got mine, I did'nt sleep for a week! It told me tales I could not believe, especially in barrels that looked like a million bucks and would'nt shoot worth a dime...
Beauty is in the eye of the scorer... ;D