12 F/TR quality PIC ADDED

[pdog06]

You are correct. Since youre not a paid member you cannot see our profiles. It keep the scammers from accessing email addresses and such. You also can not initiate a pm, but if someone pm's you then you can respond and converse with them. Not sure, but I believe if someone pm's you then you may be able to see that persons profile, but not 100% sure on that.

Keep us updated on how this barrel shoots, and what Savage says if/when you call them. I think I'd call them to make it known, and then shoot it and see how it does. Thats probably what they'll tell you to do anyway.

[Carvera]

Fred states; "Never judge a barrel by what it looks inside".

If this is the norm, would a custom barrel maker stay in business if they took that approach?

I can somewhat understand a mass produced rifle looking like that, but what about a custom barrel.

Would one not question quality, craftmanship, pride, if they received a barrel that didn't look like work they paid hundreds of dollars for? When paying for one of Savage's higher priced rifles, is it too much to ask for the rifle to look as if "it was well cared for" upon assembly?

I know that I'm not comparing apples with apples, just seeking additional clarification.

If it were mine, I'd send it back. Savage will do as Fred says, and they will fire it. But I would assume that they would not leave that barrel on your rifle knowing that you've brought to their attention how "ugly" that thing looks.

They want you to be impressed with all facets of their products.At least that's what I would assume?

[gmidbrod]

I would say that barrel is going to be a horrid fouling machine at the least, even if it shoots well. I don't care for all the fouling myself.

[fatdaddy]

I would bet that this barrel will look alot different after the, often mentioned,100 round mark. I have several that were nasty looking copper collectors at first but smoothed up with some shooting. Groups should tighten up as well. I dont believe wearing a barrel out cleaning it either, just when the groups open up. The first cleaning session will most likely show a lot of blue patches, but Id bet it'll surprise ya. Shoot that pig.... Bill

[Live Oak]

A couple of folks have PM'd me about the bore polishing procedure I mentioned in my post above and asked me to post it to the forum. Let me preface what I am NOOBIE to this, no I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, and this seems to have worked well for me. I am by no means an expert in this area, however it makes sense to me that a smooth polished bore would tend to accumulate copper and lead fouling much less than a raw bore after the machining process. Anyhow, a friend who shoots benchrest suggested this to me so I cannot take credit for it. Not sure if he posts on this board but he goes by TresMon. I sure do appreciate the help, mentoring, and instruction Tres! This bore polishing procedure may not be for or agree with all but it sure did remove an unbelievable amount of crud and micro-metalic tooling debry that was left in my factor savage barrel. Below is the polishing procedure he suggested to me:



Here is the email a friend sent me that I followed. A point he did not mention that I noticed while polishing the barrel was that I could feel the gradual and very noticable reduction in restistance to running the cleaning rod and jag through the bore as it cleaned up. It did not take too much elbow grease but it cleaned up the bore real nice.

Another thing I use is the Possum Hollow Bore Cleaning Guides and Solvent Ports. They are really good about keeping solvent and bore cleaning paste out of the chamber and off the stock. I believe your F/TR takes the #5 bore guide:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=594165

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=670764

I have checked and Brownells is the only place who sells the felt pellets and bore past. At least when I checked then.

The web links are good, you can just cross reference over to the correct size for your F/TR .308.

The primary crux is to smooth up the tooling flaws and remove the metalic debry from the machining process.

Below is the cut and past email they use on the .223 WSSM:


Here's what you need to keep the throat in the 223WSSM polished and lasting as long as possible.

Here is the web page from Brownell's that lists the stuff you'll need

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=13839&title=WEAPONS%20CARE%20SYSTEM%20PELLETS


You need the top part number : 22 cal plain felt pellets

In the top of that page, the description, you'll see "JB bore-cleaner" highlighted. click on that; you'll need a tub of JB.
It's the actual bore polishing compound.


And you need the holder for the pellets which is the 4th one down here- 8-32 adapter:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=25904&title=VFG%20THREE%20PELLET%20ADAPTER





On this page http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=7921&title=EJS%20CLEANING%20ROD%20STOPS you'll need a set of "rod stops."



Once you get this stuff, clean your barrel perfectly clean. (If you don't know how to truly clean your barrel to "as if it's never been fired" clean, don't feel bad, most guys don't know how & what to use. If you don't- just ask and i will line you up on that too!

With the barrel clean...
Push one more patch soaked with bore solvent or oil through the bore to coat it with fluid...

Screw the pellet holder on the cleaning rod(Don't put pellets on yet) Slide the rod stops on the rod.

Slide the rod down the bore untill the pellet holder (called a "jag") is perfectly flush with the end of the barrel.
Now set the rod stops against the back of the bore guide.

This way as your stroking back and forth with the JB polish, the felt pellets do not come out of the end of the barrel. (If they do come out the end of the barrel, it will rip them off the jag when you reverse directions and pull them back in.)

Screw three pellets onto the pellet jag, and rub a good coat of JB paste into and onto the pellets.

Now push the rod/pellets into the bore. It will be tight at first, but that's good.

Now here's the stroke order (in general, doesn't not have to be exact, just go for it, I do it fast and furious and get it over with.)


1.Push in about 6-10" (the throat area) and pull back out.

2.Push in about half way down the barrel and pull back out.

3.Then push all the way in (down the whole barrel)

Repeat this pattern a dozen or so times, then:

A. Now take off the pellet jag. Put on the patch jag.

B. Push about 3-4 bore solvent or gun oil soaked patches all the way through the bore to wash out the used polishing paste.

C. Put the pellet jag back on with the used pellets, re-coat them with fresh JB Bore Polish. and repeat the stroke pattern with the pellets.

Do this whole cycle about three times.

The first three felt pellets may or may not last for the whole polishing cycle. You'll be able to tell. They'll be really loose fitting in the bore and will be coming apart. You'll know if you need to change them.

Now you have a clean and micro polished bore, which will make the barrel last quite a bit longer than if just shot to death, or shot and just "minimally cleaned from time to time."

When your done with your bore polishing, push 3+ more oil soaked patches through the bore to clean out the JB. (note, I used CRC brake spray cleaner followed with a very lightly oiled patch)
Then push one or two dry patches through to take out most the oil. (This will leave a super light coat of oil in the bore which is good. Too much oil left causes bad accuracy.)

Your done.

[ellobo]

From what I know of button broaching there would never be tool marks like that. Or should I say, should never be marks like that. What it looks like to me is a badly done cut broached barrel. Is Savage having barrels made in China like every other company is having thier stuff made in China?
Send that pc. of crap back and demand a decent barrel.

El Lobo

[pls4541]

I've recently purchased 2 savage rifles, (models 16 & 10) that arrived with bright clean bores and shoot as well, (or better) than 2 seriously custom crafted remington 700's. I reqularly use the jb bore paste in all my rifles now, and believe that the cleaner the bore the more accurate the rifle.....back to the point.....someone really screwed up on your barrel and it needs to go back to factory for replacement. Maybe they can even have a few department meetings detailing how not to let that happen again. One reason for my recent switch to Savage is due to the fact that I beleive each operator is accountable for quality and works hard to produce the best product possible for the customer. Now, if you want to discuss inadequate customer service....let me tell you about a Bushnell scope problem......keep shooting strait!

[intel]

This is puzzling, I don't see how the machining marks could be on the "Lands" and "Grooves", especially when Savage barrels are button rifled, very confusing indeed, I would send that one back and get a explanation from Savage.

[Wes_VB]

This is puzzling, I don't see how the machining marks could be on the "Lands" and "Grooves", especially when Savage barrels are button rifled, very confusing indeed, I would send that one back and get a explanation from Savage.

I'm pretty sure that the marks are from drilling. I can get a better look at it here with higher resolution and you can tell that the marks have been flattened by the button. I can also tell that the are no marks on the shoulders of the lands.
Curious, so I went to a local shop that has a 12 F/TR and a 12 Palma and both of these rifles barrels are similar to this one. Maybe not quite as bad but similar.
If the wind will ever lay here I may get to shoot it tomorrow.

[bluealtered]

My 12fvss .308 looks about like that, with about 500rds through it now. My best group to date is three shots in a 1" orange stickum at 342yds, thats as far as i can shoot at our range. It will shoot ragged one hole groups at 200yds most of the time. This is from a simple m-t-m rest, not a leadsled, i would have to chime in with try it first.

You should remember that now you have a "it won't work" thought in the back of your mind, try not to let that get in the way and remember being new it will still need some rounds through it to "settle" down. And if nothing else, savage will make it right.

P.S. i learned years ago not to look down the barrel of a factory savage, it just makes your heart sink. But they shoot as good as the shooter anyway. blue

[Blue Avenger]

Ummmm....send that one back.


I have to agree that looks awful .Send it back.


must agree send it back i have a junk lathe an cut better threads than that


you guys all have ugly barrel nuts on your rifles, there is no way it can shoot that way, send them back!

[82boy]

Every Savage barrel I have seen look similar to the one pictured. I guess most people don't look, or are able to bring out the clarity of the barrel as seen in the picture, to see what the barrel actually looks like.



Is Savage having barrels made in China like every other company is having thier stuff made in China?
El Lobo


No Savage has not farmed there barrel making out to China, they still make barrels the same way they have done for around 50 years. Savage knows that there barrels are rough, and they will not deny it. The thing to remember is Savage mass produces high volume of barrels, and does so at a super fast rate. It is because of the speeds, that cause the barrels to look like they do. (It take them 2 times the amount of time to set up the barrel for button rifling, as it does to actually do the rifling, The rifling only takes a few seconds to accomplish.) The folks at Savage told me that they are capable to slow the machines down and make a barrel that is smooth, and looks like a custom barrel, but it would not shoot any better, and the cost would skyrocket, so it is not to their benefit.

The fact is Savage is known for their out of box accuracy. They sell thousands of rifles a year, not to say they can have a bad apple out of the bunch every now and then, but I would say most rifles that are returned, are for cosmetic reason, that do not affect the accuracy or function of the rifle. I am willing to bet if this rifle was sent back to Savage, they would test fire it and find it good, and send it back, or to make the customer happy they would place a new barrel on, and I am willing to bet that would look exactly like the barrel they pulled off.

I can say from my experience that you can never judge a barrel by how it looks. Some of the best shooting barrels I have seen are one that people have gave up on, or just totally look horrible. One barrel that come to mind is one the Sharpshooter owns. This barrel was tortured in a dog town, with well over 4000 rounds of 22/250. Sharpshooter took this barrel, cut it, and re-chambered it in 22BR. He dumped a bunch of Sweets down the barrel and let it sit overnight, and cleaned it out, to find that the fist 4 inches of barrel is smoked, NO RIFLING AT ALL. This barrel shoots groups in the .3 to .2 area all day long, and would outshout most new barrels.

Another barrel that comes to mind is a factory Savage 204 Ruger barrel I bought. he barrel was a take off it had a big scratch down the barrel. The scratch could be seen with the naked eye, and it ran the full length of the barrel. This barrel would shoot in the .3's all day long.

In closing don't judge a book by its cover. (Meaning go out and shoot the thing first.) Don't worry about the oversize bore, as long as it can hold the bullet, and spin it what does it matter.

[intel]

Okay lets forget about the accuracy aspect of this, what is puzzling to me is how after the button is passed thru the drilled/bored barrel and it presses/tranferes the rifling to the barrel it still has the machining marks, they should be pressed away, at least on the "groove" part of the rifling.

[Wes_VB]

Not to worry folks. I am at peace with the appearance and fully expect it to be a hammer.
After listening to the Team Savage and the US team members and others who say the same thing and looking at two model 12s at the local gunstore I'm convinced this is just a Savage barrel and it WILL shoot fine.
I'll find out tomorrow.


Somebody should have warned me ahead of time before I raised a stink. ;)

[Balljoint]

Never looked at my bore of my F/TR just as well it shoots very WELL INDEED

[Carvera]

If a guy pays "top dollar" and he is not satisfied with his purchase, he should be able to return for a refund or an exchange right? If I was planning on dropping the kind of money that Savage wants for some of their "high end" models I would want to be 100% satisfied. Can we agree on that? If some of you guys claim that every Savage barrel you've seen looks just like the one pictured, that's fine. What about the guy who drops $1000 on his first Savage rifle, what's he to think? I guess that individual can come here and ask questions, but there is a common thread, (no pun intended ;D) that he basically should "just suck it up" that's how Savage does things.

Moderator's, (for educational purposes) maybe you can take the picture of this barrel, and put it in the "sticky's" showing what a common Savage barrel normally looks like? That would help potential buyers by letting them know they shouldn't be so disappointed in appearance of their newly purchased rifle. Let them know that is a "common thing". But if I were Savage, (or even a Savage employee that surfs this board) You don't think that Savage employee may ask; "Would you please take that picture off of your site, it will take away from our sales".

If Savage were to receive this rifle/barrel, they would test fire it, but I doubt they would send it back with said barrel. Why would Savage send this barrel back if they really wanted to make their customer happy? If they did place a new barrel on (before sending it back) I would think that they would put a better looking barrel on that gun. They surely realize that if the customer already has an "eye" for looking over their craftmanship, they don't want to send you back a barrel that looks like the one you just returned? Internet forums do wonders when it comes to spreading information on how they've been taken care of by said company.

If you can't judge a barrel by how it looks, then someone please explain why so many of you are willing to pay premium money for aftermarket barrels? Like I said earlier, I know that a Savage factory barrel isn't a "custom barrel". Someone tactfully explain to me why a premium custom barrel maker couldn't just tell you; "Hey, who cares how it looks. I know you just spent $300 of your hard earned money, but you should just shoot the thing and be happy". I guess either Savage, or a custom barrel maker could take that approach but don't you think that will hurt business....... just a little bit?

Personally I would have a hard time telling someone, "Don't judge a book by its cover" If they just dumped a boatload of cash and received a prodcut that they had high hopes for only to be completely disappionted and confused?

I'm obviously not speaking for Wes_VB, as it sounds as if he's content. I'm just "hypothetically speaking".

Conversation anyone?

[intel]

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/10/how-are-barrels-rifled-part-2-button.html

[borg]

Here is my conversation: Team Savage has spoken. They are kicking ass with ugly barrels attached to the receiver with ugly barrel nuts. As an ugly nut myself, I'm falling in line with the crowd who goes out and proves that aesthetics are secondary to function.

[ellobo]

OK, with all that said, there is another famous Savage trait, barrels that copper up heavily when new. After looking at that barrel it becomes obvious why. Those of us that know about it take care of it. BUT, and its a big BUT, how about Joe six pack that goes out and buys a Savage and never heard about coppering up, which is proabably 98% of the people who buy rifles. And if said Joe shoots a lot or is a varmint shooter after Pdogs and fires a lot of rounds and after several hundred the barrel coppers up and cant hit nuttin' he hears from dear old Dad, "I told ya to buy a Remington, every one knows them d**n Savages are junk." So Joe six pack trades it in for a Remington. Just one of the problems that have given Savage a bad name over the years. We have all heard the complaints, wether justified or not, they are out there.
Also, I cant understand how a barrel button broached can look like that. I have seen bores (not rifle bores) button broached and they never looked like that. One of the reasons for button broaching is it's fast and accurate smooth contours. It forges, not cuts, and I cannot understand how a carbide button can leave a barrel looking like it was cut with a threading V tool in the bore and grooves.
Will someone please explain that too me, an old tooling and manufacturing engineer.

El Lobo

[Wes_VB]

Also, I cant understand how a barrel button broached can look like that. I have seen bores (not rifle bores) button broached and they never looked like that. One of the reasons for button broaching is it's fast and accurate smooth contours. It forges, not cuts, and I cannot understand how a carbide button can leave a barrel looking like it was cut with a threading V tool in the bore and grooves.
Will someone please explain that too me, an old tooling and manufacturing engineer.

El Lobo

I really think what we are seeing is artifacts from the drilling. I have the original pic and can look at it in much higher resolution than I posted to Photobucket.
It's pretty obvious that the grooves and lands have a rather distinct flat spot on the surface where the button flattened the original drill marks. I can also see that the shoulders of the lands do not have these marks which just enforces that the rings are left over from the barrel drilling operation.
Original pic was taken with a 30 year old Lester Dine Kiron 100mm Macro lens. To this day it is one of if not the best Macro lenses ever made.