Extractor claw, a precautionary tale.

[Rogeritall]

I took my Left Handed Axis in .223 Rem out to the range the other day to see if some of the changes I've made (Boyd's stock, trigger work, scope change) to the rifle improved accuracy, they did and it is shooting really well, not perfect, but really well. After about 35 rounds (ran bore brush through about every ten shots) sent downrange I suddenly noticed a change in the way the bolt felt in closing, and the empty casings were not ejecting as per normal. I took about two more shots and still the same thing, and accuracy had fell of as well. So, wondering if something had gone majorly wrong I packed up and called it quits for the day. Upon taking the rifle apart for normal cleaning I was concentrating on the "extractor claw" on the bolt face when I noticed the claw seemed to have a lot of brass built up on the underside of the claw itself.

I was cleaning the claw with an old tooth brush to little effect, but I noticed that the claw seemed somewhat twisted in the channels of the bolt face. So, turning the tooth brush around I gently pushed on the extractor claw to make sure it was moving free. One touch with the tooth brush handle and all I knew was parts were flying and I could hear little parts bouncing off the nearby walls. Near as I can figure a piece of brass must have wedged itself up under the extractor claw in the gap between it and the bolt, and nearly broke it over the detent ball and spring, because when I just barely touched it, it went past locked position and flew apart. All I was left holding was the bolt, the spring was gone, the ball was gone, and the claw was gone. Needless to say, I was not a happy person at that moment.

After a couple hours searching I was blessed with finding all the missing parts... I took a dental pick and removed the brass fouling from the underside of the extractor claw, and managed to put everything back together with good results. It seems to be working just as it should now.

My precautionary part of this tale is of course if you are having extraction problems be very prepared for the possibility of the extractor, spring, and ball to all go flying into space when you are attempting examine them. They don't seem to be very expensive parts to get from Savage, but I'm sure I would rather not have the down time waiting on getting them. Also I've learned to look for brass flakes under the extractor now that may lead to problems. Just sharing what I've had to deal with, hope it may save some of you from the same headaches that I had looking for the tiny parts in the living room carpet that day. :)

[Nor Cal Mikie]

The spring is usually easier to find compared to the ball. Go to your local Bike Shop and pick up a "few extras" just in case. Be prepared! Couple of $$ and you're set for the "next time". In the future, a plastic bag to hold the bolt when you take the extractor apart. It's called CYA.

[jasta]

I was at a mates place doing a bit of bench work over 200 meters, my brother was beside me with his 3006 Axis taking shots and it had a factory round that ruptured. When we opened the bolt "carefully" the claw, spring and ball went flying.... Managed to find it all and get it back together and started thinking about how much pressure there was from the case in the action to do that.

[Rogeritall]

I was at a mates place doing a bit of bench work over 200 meters, my brother was beside me with his 3006 Axis taking shots and it had a factory round that ruptured. When we opened the bolt "carefully" the claw, spring and ball went flying.... Managed to find it all and get it back together and started thinking about how much pressure there was from the case in the action to do that.

Thanks for some food for thought... These were my reloads that I was shooting, and I know they were loaded way below max, but all the same I'm going to look those cases over very close before reloading them again and make sure there wasn't a problem of any kind. Seems to me like an awful lot of brass flakes and chips on that extractor when I was cleaning it up, and it had to come from those rounds. Those cases only have about four reloads on them, but you never know which one may go bad at anytime. "I THINK" (famous last words) I would have noticed a breached case, but it depends on how small the blow out was I guess. All I know is that the bolt got stiff to lock in place suddenly, and the extractor quit working. But, as I said in the first post, it flew apart (the extractor) way too easy to be in its normal location when I was attempting to clean it. I've taken those type extractors apart before and it takes a bunch more effort than what I did to it to get it to break over center and come loose. As luck would go it seems fine now though, I can push on it fairly hard and it still stays where it is meant to.

[foxx]

You said the loads were "way below max". Were they below published minimums? Maybe you already know this, but for the sake of others who may be reading this and don't know, loads below stated minimums can cause excessive pressure spikes.

[pinsnscrews]

You said the loads were "way below max". Were they below published minimums? Maybe you already know this, but for the sake of others who may be reading this and don't know, loads below stated minimums can cause excessive pressure spikes.

+1

This recently came up on another forum. The shooter was trying to make "mousefart" loads to soften the recoil for his daughter. The case ruptured at the head.

[jasta]

tanks foxx... Im starting to reload for the 223 and thats good info.

[Rogeritall]

You said the loads were "way below max". Were they below published minimums? Maybe you already know this, but for the sake of others who may be reading this and don't know, loads below stated minimums can cause excessive pressure spikes.

Thanks... But, yes I already knew about high pressure events due to under loading. These were just what I call plinking loads. Loads that were loaded by volume not by weight using a little Lee powder measuring scoop that comes with the .223 die set. If memory serves me (which is why I always write things down and go by the manuals, because memory often fails) it winds up being a fairly consistent 18.4 grains of Win 748, which is close to middle of the road for that particular powder pushing a 55 grain boat tail solid point.

But, getting back on point... I don't think it was a case rupture (although I'll check them over carefully as always) but it was a significant amount of Brass "chips" "shavings" that I personally didn't know could get up under the extractor claw like that and cause a malfunction. Bottom line is... I've just never had any other rifle I've owned do that before. Design weakness?... Fluke event?... Just my Axis?... Only time will tell I guess.

[cranebird]

Thanks... But, yes I already knew about high pressure events due to under loading. These were just what I call plinking loads. Loads that were loaded by volume not by weight using a little Lee powder measuring scoop that comes with the .223 die set. If memory serves me (which is why I always write things down and go by the manuals, because memory often fails) it winds up being a fairly consistent 18.4 grains of Win 748, which is close to middle of the road for that particular powder pushing a 55 grain boat tail solid point.

But, getting back on point... I don't think it was a case rupture (although I'll check them over carefully as always) but it was a significant amount of Brass "chips" "shavings" that I personally didn't know could get up under the extractor claw like that and cause a malfunction. Bottom line is... I've just never had any other rifle I've owned do that before. Design weakness?... Fluke event?... Just my Axis?... Only time will tell I guess.

Put a .140" ball in it and see if it makes a difference.

[Rogeritall]

A bit of an update... I have inspected all the cases very carefully that I had fired the day of the "extractor problem". There are no signs of ruptured cases, but one case has a bit of a divot in it near the rim, I'll toss it just to be on the safe side... The strangest thing I found though was a punched in small rectangular mark near the firing pin dimple on one of the cases. I've never seen a mark like this before, and at the time of typing this have no real clue what may have caused it.

I'll try to take a photo of the mark and post it on this thread, but the mark is so small I don't know if it will show up very well in a photo or not. Strange to even stranger... (Shrug)

[cranebird]

Thanks... But, yes I already knew about high pressure events due to under loading. These were just what I call plinking loads. Loads that were loaded by volume not by weight using a little Lee powder measuring scoop that comes with the .223 die set. If memory serves me (which is why I always write things down and go by the manuals, because memory often fails) it winds up being a fairly consistent 18.4 grains of Win 748, which is close to middle of the road for that particular powder pushing a 55 grain boat tail solid point.

But, getting back on point... I don't think it was a case rupture (although I'll check them over carefully as always) but it was a significant amount of Brass "chips" "shavings" that I personally didn't know could get up under the extractor claw like that and cause a malfunction. Bottom line is... I've just never had any other rifle I've owned do that before. Design weakness?... Fluke event?... Just my Axis?... Only time will tell I guess.

I was thinking that the .223 came with a 1.6 dipper which would put your 748 powder charge at 24.4 gr ?

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

[Rogeritall]

I was thinking that the .223 came with a 1.6 dipper which would put your 748 powder charge at 24.4 gr ?

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

You may be right... Sounds familiar. As I said before my memory may fail me. I never try to go by memory on any reloading data, I go by measurements and the manuals. I was also reloading some .44mag loads with 2400 lately so that's probably where I got the 18.4... But don't quote me for sure on that. When I reload I refresh by going by manual figures and weights (unless of course I go by volume, and then I still weigh some loads for consistency) As a mechanic for years I learned never to rely on memory, that's why they print information in manuals. Some things are too important to try to rely on memory. :) But, you probably are correct, I'd have to check to be sure.

[Rogeritall]

http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/Bionicycle/NewOO8_zps97cacf2b.jpg

http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/Bionicycle/005_zps96e342e4.jpg
Here are a couple of photos of the strange mark I found on one case out of forty that I fired that day... The case on the Left is normal, and you can see for yourselves the mark on the primer on the Right. It didn't slam fire, and it didn't rupture. I'm at a complete loss on this one, I'm hopeful it was just a strange, strange fluke.

[cranebird]

If I were to guess, you seated the primer into the case when a piece of extruded powder was on the primer seating pin and embossed the primer. Are those round case markings from your extractor pin ?

[Rogeritall]

If I were to guess, you seated the primer into the case when a piece of extruded powder was on the primer seating pin and embossed the primer. Are those round case markings from your extractor pin ?

No, I don't think so... First, I don't load anything with extruded stick powder at this time. Second, I hand prime and only put enough pressure on the primer to pre-seat the primer anvil. If you could see in person how deep that mark is, I don't think with a hand primer tool I could even seat it that hard. Third, I check each round after priming it just in case of primer flip, and to make sure they seat deep enough. That would have stuck out like a sore thumb. No, the only thing I'm beginning to think it could have been, is maybe, a piece of bristle out of the bronze bore brush I was using about every ten shots to clean the bore up must of by some "unknown" set of circumstances wound up on the bolt face somehow. Which is strange because I had the bolt out of the rifle for each cleaning.

Whatever it was must have been in the chamber during ignition, because it looks like it changed the head spacing and let the primer bulge back out somewhat at the firing pin dimple. If you note in the photo the damaged primer is not nearly as flattened out as the other one, and the firing pin dimple is about half re-expanded. Thank goodness it doesn't seem to have left any mark on the bolt face, but whatever it was is most likely what jammed under the extractor claw and made me take note that there was a problem to start with. I'd say I was extremely blessed, and or, fortunate that it worked out as it did. I may never know exactly what caused it, but as time goes on I'm beginning to think it was just a set of fluke circumstances and not a design weakness with the firearm itself.

Oh, to answer your question about the marks on the brass. I take it you mean the "Ejector Pin"... But no, those are manufacturing marks on that particular brand of brass, there are no other marks like that on the other brands of brass I shoot.

[cranebird]

Yeah, that's weird .I also use a hand primer and am constantly watching my primers.