6mm PPC

[fcsurvivor]

I have been thinking about a 6mm PPC. All the PPC rifles that I have seen have been on BAT, Farley and Surgeon actions. Being a Savage junkie I thought why not build one on a Savage action. The question is which one? I am not really concerned about a repeater (I guess I don't care one way or the other) so a single shot is OK with me. As the PPC is a Benchrest cartridge, I want this one to be as accurate as possible. I know the 6mm BR has more range but I have my .260 for that so the PPC is what I think I will do.

So here are my questions: First what action? And why?
Second I would use 80gr bullets at the heaviest (most likely bullets in the 60gr range as there are so many good custom Benchrest bullets made in this range) and a 20 to 22" barrel so what twist would I want to use?
Fineally what stock for off the bench, and some prone?

[82boy]

The 6PPC is my favorite cartridge, It is just a good performer, but it is not the end all be all, and is not the right fit for everyone. To start, the 6PPC is a labor intense cartridge, and brass must be made from a 220 Russian cartridge. The 6ppc does one thing well, and better than anything else, it shoots 66-68 gr bullets to a super high level of accuracy. In a 6PPC 95% of shooter use a 1 in 14 twist barrel, the point behind the PPC is to get a barrel to barely stabilize the bullet you are shooting. (Some shooter use a 1 in 15 twist.) The 6PPC is a dedicated bench rest round, most people don't pick to for shooting other things such as off hand or prone.

If you wanting to shoot 80 gr bullets, the 6BR would handle that feat much better. It sounds like maybe the 6BR would be a better fit, for what your looking to do. The 6BR is nothing to pass off, it is a super accurate round that does well at short and long ranges. IMO the 6br is the most versatile round ever, no special bolt head, no custom brass, just a great round.

The 6PPC can be done on a Savage but you need a special custom made bolt head, or a special custom made extractor to work. Sharp Shooters Supply (SSS) is about the only company that I know that makes such items.

On what action, the answer is anyone, they are all good. There is no proof what so ever that a target action shoots any better than a repeater, or that a long action shoots any better than a short action. I built a NBRSA/IBS short range benchrest out of a model 11 repeater action, and it is every bit as smooth and accurate as my BAT. The main thing on an action is to send it to SSS and get a time and truing job.

On stocks if your not building a true benchrest gun where weight is a must, I would go with a SSS long range benchrest stock, or Tolley MBR.

I would recommend you look at building a 6BR with a 24 inch barrel in a 1 in 8 twist. This set up will be super accurate, and if you ever want to touch out to 1000 yards it will do it. (And do it far better than your 260 could ever wish to do.) This set up is deadly accurate at 100 and 200 yard with lighter bullets. It is just a win win round.

[docsleepy]

82boy knows a lot mroe about this than I do and I think his recommendations are right on.

The reason people go for the slower twist where possible is to minimize torque, thus increasing accuracy.

The process of neck turning is not as difficult as it might seem. A complete eye-opener to me was that one wishes to have cases that are VERY SNUG in the chamber, in order to get maximum accuracy. I was used to 223 where my rounds were never snug.

By getting the rounds VERY SNUG (a bit of resistance when closing the bolt) you absolutely remove wiggle. By having the neck be just .001 clearance on all sides, you can't have much slop ANYWHERE. You can literally FEEL it when you hand place the round in the chamber -- it like pushes the air out when you place it, and you feel how snug it is.

If you want maximum accuracy in 6BR I would assume you'll need something similar.

6PPC brass is available already formed, either from supliers (Hoehn Sales for one) or Norma brass. If your neck fit is snug, the brass doesn't get much "worked" and people routinely go an entire year on 35 - 50 cases.

If you want to fireform your own brass, buy the K&M turner, attach a dial indicator (educates you fast!), take some 220 Russian, expand it up with a K&M 6mm expander, and then turn it. Cut just a bit into the shoulder -- you'll have to learn by trial and error how much -- and then see if you can get it to fit into your gun. It will be snug. Some people Full Lengh resize it at this point to make it fit; I have been able to figure out how much to cut to get it to fit. Chamfer, Prime, charge, seat, go fire and bingo, you will observe that the end of your cut has moved up onto the shoulder, the case length has shortened a bit and has a much more angular look to it. If you like tinkering, this is fun; if you don't, avoid like the plague!

I chose to have a .270 neck Shilen savage-prefit barrel, 1:13 in Stainless. The .270 neck allows me to turn the necks a fair bit, making them pretty uniform, but I have no significant risk at all, even as a novice, of cutting through the shoulder joint. K&M also sells an inside cutter that can take out the"dreaded doughtnut" of brass that can get pushed to the INSIDE of the junction. You can feel for this with a paperclip and if you ever get one, you'll know it.

I am still learning (82boy has passed along some tips!!) but it is quite a bit of fun in my opinion. I am not really a great shooter, and my optics are only $200 32x, but my groups are slowly but continuously improving. At first the 6PPC was not any better than the .223 Savage barrel I had before, much to my chagrin....but now I am past that and far more consistent. It also cleans up remarkably fast.

I got my bolthead from SSS, and the barrel via Northland, from Shilen. There may be better barrels, I dunno, this is all I have. If you know how to headspace a barrel, this is fun. I got my stock from Stockade Stocks, but I would be just as pleased from SSS, who will be time/trueing/Evolution trigger my project in a couple months. I may see another big jump at that point, time will tell.

Fun facts to know:
a) Lee sells a 6PPC neck collet die that is easy to use if you want to size that way. Most people are surprised to learn they make 6PPC. Their seater is actually (so far) no worse than any other I have, just not calibrated)
b) Harrels Precision will make you a semi custom F/L bushing die, if you want to size that way, and it can be used to bump the shoulders when the case expands enough that it reallyk won't fit any more. Call them. Send some fired cases for them to measure. Neat. http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=207&rn=384&action=show_detail

c) Be CERTAIN to get a 3" flat forearm benchrest stock and get a good front rest and a heavy rear bag.
d) The Wilson micrometer inline seater is wonderful, and I literally used a plastic hammer to seat until I bought a K&M arbor press. People in my club told me not to pass go, just buy that seater from the start.
e) The "sweet spot" in powder varies .3 grains (h322 or comparable Viht) in 10 degrees F. see posts at the end of this very long (but informative) thread on tuners: http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68145

If you want less work, go for 6BR, maybe a fitted neck, and you can just easily turn 6BR premade brass. If you don't even want to do that, go 6br!
Have fun whatever you choose!

gordon

[fcsurvivor]

Thanks for the GREAT INFO guys. I have looked at the 6mm BR as several of the guys I shoot with have them. They all think I am crazy for going after the 6mm PPC, but I have been intrigued by the PPC for many years, and have finally decided now is the time. I built my .260 with a 26" Shilen on a Stevens 200 action. I installed the barrel my self with a set of Clymers guages and it worked out great.
I have read the stuff on forming brass for the PPC and that doesn't bother me any as I am one of those few freaks who truely enjoy reloading. I for all my .260 brass from Win 7mm-08, neck turn and fireform it. So I think that the 6mm PPC brass would just be another step in that direction.
So I guess all I need to decide is wheather to use a Stevens 200 action like I did for the .260, or if I should go for one of the Savage Target single shot actions. As soon as I can make this decision I can get the barrel coming from Shilen (I waited 15 weeks for my last one) and round up the action.
Thanks for all the info again and any more input would be greatly appreciated.
BTW what would you all recomend for dies? Should I go with a factory die like Redding, or wait for the barrel and order some custom dies?

[82boy]

A Stevens 200 action T&T, with a single shot plate glued in, and a SSS 2oz Evolution trigger would be the ticket. The only advantage to the target actions would be the dual port feed, but for the additional cost and weight, is it worth it?

There is several types of PPC, chamberings. There is the USA chambering that has a shorter, and a thicker neck, there is the Dave Kiff standard PPC witch most times is a 262 neck, this is what a lot of benchrest shooters are using, and there is the NB chambering which is 30 thousands longer, and the area where the neck, and shoulder join is slightly changed. Some people have 263 necks, and some have 261 necks. And I am sure there is a few other styles.

What you may want to do is buy a used benchrest barrel ,and have it re-chambered for a Savage. Many used barrels can be had for around $100 bucks, and a smith could chamber it for under $100. You would have 2 bills in it, but it would let you know if the PPC is for you. Something else to consider is you can always have it punched out to a 6br.
On Barrels, Shilen has several PPC reamers, something to remember is many barrel sellers do not. My thoughts are if you looking for a benchrest barrel buy a cut rifled, hand lapped premium barrel like a Krieger, Hart, Bartline or Brux. SSS can chamber you a Brux with the Kiff reamer in 262 neck. (This reamer has been put to use a few times, and it is a proven winner. ;) )

On Dies, IMO Redding dies are not worth the money. I would just buy a Forester fl die set up with the micrometer seater. Wilson hand dies are good stuff, and you can find them used cheap. Hall of fame shooter Bob White might have some nice dies, used barrel ,and other stuff your looking for. He is one heck of a nice guy. http://www.benchrest.com/shooterscorner/

[82boy]

If your serious about a stock, and you want one of the best, give Tom Meredith a call. Buy a un-inletted Remington 700 stock, and have SSS inlet it for you. The rem tang is very close, and I have seen SSS do this before, and I tell you want it is the strait cat meow. Tom is another super nice guy. Be prepared, you will have over $500 in it, but it is worth every penny!
http://www.tmss.net/

[docsleepy]

82boy -- GREAT information there! I need to study my PPC chamber a bit to figure out exactly which one I ended up with. All I know so far is that it is at least 1.525 long to the end of the neck and a .270 neck. I saw a slug type gauge one could use to measure the neck....might get one of the barrells you suggest for my next barrel. I'm doing OK with the Shilen but not world beaters.

On the dies -- the Lee collet is cheap and works no matter whether you foul up the thickness or not.

[edit: What you can do is buy the Lee collet/seater combo to start. Cheap!! They are all you need to fireform and even do well past that. I am so far still unable to tell any difference between accuracy from my wilson inline and my Lee (seating to .010 jammed) -- the wilson is easier to adjust! but the Lee works well. There may BE a difference; but I am unable to detect it at my level of proficiency. Use the Lee set to get going, keep the powder below roughly 28-29 grains so you don't quite need FL sizing, and make up some cases. I number every case with a Sharpie and keep track of them. Once you have several that are well fireformed (3-4 firings), send them off to Harrels for the FL die. Order the Wilson perhaps used from "the list" that 82boy pointed you to or buy new. You'll need a hammer or an arbor press for it. ]

The Harrell is fitted to you chamber and both full length sizes and (with proper bushing) will neck size also.
I bought a redding FL die and now have no further use for it, but could not recommend it to you. It is based on the expander ball concept, but it squishes the neck so tight (if you take outthe center piece) that you end up having to expand anyway....in other words you cannot use to to body size (unless you drill out the top....not worth it). Had I known about the harrel I would never have bought it.

the site that 82boy recommended is full of used rifles and all kinds of equipment. The rifles are generally arranged in a price order which is helpful.

And 82boy is about to talk me into a 6BR for a future rifle.

[docsleepy]

82boy -- can you tell us what kinds of aggregates you were able to achieve with the BR rifle based on the 11 action? I tend to be concerned that the action is limiting me, but perhaps I'm all wet-- you are obviously convinced that the Savage is every bit as good as your Bat!

[82boy]

82boy -- can you tell us what kinds of aggregates you were able to achieve with the BR rifle based on the 11 action? I tend to be concerned that the action is limiting me, but perhaps I'm all wet-- you are obviously convinced that the Savage is every bit as good as your Bat!


Well, aggregates are not that great, mostly do to the shooter. (I still have a lot to learn.) The barrel is a used 21 3/4 inch Krieger, 1 in 14 twist barrel that has gone through 5 different people, it still looks good through a bore scope, and I just had the chamber freshened up. (Did make a bit of difference, but have not shot it much since. barrel has an estimated 1100 rounds) I also have a 22 inch Douglass 250 neck 22br barrel in 1 in 14 twist, that I have switched back and forth. With either barrel the gun will agg in the mid .2's. The best group was shot with the PPC barrel at a .122. All groups shown are 5 shoot 100 yard groups.
Couple of PPC groups, this is common groups for this gun.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/5shot100yardgroupinthehigh1s.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan0002-1.jpg
Playing around with th 22br just changed scope mount, shot a couple of years ago.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan-2.jpg
Pictures of gun, it ways in at 10 lbs 7oz right on the 10.5 line.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/HPIM1574.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/HPIM1571.jpg

[docsleepy]

Well, those look pretty good! I think I am now getting into that ballpark. I think I see teflon tape on your stock, I need to do that. My barrel is a Shilen with less than 300 rounds (from me, learning). I think I'll sit back and see if I get much improvement from having SSS work on it. That may be all I decide to pursue for a while, in spite of how interesting the new Shilen action appears....unless I get rich all of a sudden!

[82boy]

yup, Teflon tape. It slides OK, but not like my Friends Savage with a TM stock works BR stock unpainted on cordura bags. First time I shot it it made me jump, because it just slid back in a hurry. I could be that I am using leather, I did have felt covering them and it worked a bit better, until I found that using baby powder with cornstarch did wonders, and I removed the felt, and just the bare bags. There is a difference in how the rifle slides with regular baby powder, and with cornstarch.

I think the gun has a ton of potential, and it would probably show with a new barrel. (And a better shooter.)


. I think I'll sit back and see if I get much improvement from having SSS work on it.

O' trust me, you will see a diference.

[fcsurvivor]

Again more FANTASTIC INFO, I am getting an education here and am very greatful. All the Smith's I know around here only want to work on Remington, Brownings etc. If you mention Savage, they just kind of turn up their nose at you.
82Boy who did you have build you rifle up? It looks great, thats what I had in mind. Is the stock one of SSS's stocks? I really like the looks of it. If you folks could recomend a good smith that will do the Savages it would be greatly appreciated.

[82boy]

Again more FANTASTIC INFO, I am getting an education here and am very greatful. All the Smith's I know around here only want to work on Remington, Brownings etc. If you mention Savage, they just kind of turn up their nose at you.
82Boy who did you have build you rifle up? It looks great, thats what I had in mind. Is the stock one of SSS's stocks? I really like the looks of it. If you folks could recomend a good smith that will do the Savages it would be greatly appreciated.


Most of the work that did not require machining was done by me, everything else was done by SSS. The stock was a prototype. (it is similar in design to a Shehane Baby tracker, but not exact.) I installed the pillars, bedded it, did a lot of drilling, and sanding, clear coated it, and made the but plate. The action was T&T by SSS, it has the evolution trigger set at 2oz, the magazine box was removed, and a single shot follower was glued in. The bolt handle is a modified SSS. Fred drilled out the center of the knob to lighted up the gun. The bolt was one of the first bolts SSS fluted. It has Talley mounts, and an old 110 aluminum trigger guard.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/HPIM1813.jpg
This is what the stock looked like when I took it home.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/HPIM1494.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/HPIM1493.jpg

To add you will find most shooters and gunsmiths have the same attitude about Savage. The sad thing is they have made there opinion and have never tried to see if it does work or not.

[fcsurvivor]

Thanks again for all the great info guys----- I am diving in to the PPC thing so we shall see how it turns out. I think on the great advise given I will grab up another Stevens 200 action (hey ya can't argue with what works and it looks like 82boy's gun works just fine). Since it dosen't matter about the mag (since it will be a single shot anyway) would there be any preference about the caliber of action I start out with? Would I want a .223 or one with the .308 bolt head?

[82boy]

Would I want a .223 or one with the .308 bolt head?


223 because you can save some money on a PPC bolt head, SSS starts out with a 223 bolt head and opens it up for the PPC. Or you could use the 308, and get a PPC extractor. I would say the PPC bolt head from a 223 is the better option.