Happyness soon fades what is wrong here with my Savage 243 model 10 Help please THX

[wiliamr]

I just bought a life insurance policy on loose cannon with myself as the beneficiary. LC DO NOT use that powder! you do not know what it is! throw it on the lawn!

[Freebore]

I think it would be a ton of fun to experiment but I likely never will because it would be too expensive to invest in multiple rifles I would be willing to destroy, gun vise, remote trigger mechanism, and a bullet proof glass sheild to hide behind.

[Con]

EMT -
Did you read the whole thread or just jumped in right at the end? The OP THOUGHT he was using 30 grains of IMR 4831 with 100 grain bullets. Starting load for that is 39.2 according to Hodgdon. So yes, loading 30 grains of 4831 is still dangerous.

If you are saying it is ok to start 25% below minimum you flat out should not offer any advice.

This is generally speaking absolutely correct. SEE (Secondary Explosion Effect) has never been explained publicly, but reduced loads of slow powders are implicated, in some cases reduced loads of fast burning powders too, but they're more likely to have been double charges. Any of the 4831s at that low a charge weight are not something you wish to be playing with.

Some cartridges also have a documented habit of self-parting and like it or not, the 243Win is one of those.

I'm glad the OPer determined that he was not using legitimate IMR4831 and survived the experience (rifle designs have a lot of lee-way built into them), but suggesting that a reduced load of H4831 is somehow safe disregards evidence to the contrary. In general, 90% plus loading densities when using a slow powder is the way to stay safe (assuming the cartridges pressure limits are not exceeded by these charges) ... which becomes even more interesting when loading for a Nitro Express cartridge where case volume is often huge, but the pressure limitations of the cartridge and the rifles limits charge weights. In that case, fillers start being used and the hottest primer you can get.
Cheers...
Con

[Jamie]

^^^ Thank you.

[Con]

^^^ Thank you.

No problem. As stated, the exact why of SEE hasn't been nailed. It's been suggested to be as a result of rough throats that temporarily catch the projectile and allow pressures to skyrocket, flash over of powder charges, 'smouldering' charges (smouldering isn't quite the right word as we're dealing with time in the tens to hundreds of milliseconds) that release decomposition gases that then ignite, pressure waves coinciding ... lots of theory but not much hard evidence because its never been replicated in a laboratory.

But it's always been low density charges of slow for the application powders that caused the issue, possibly with heavy deterrant coatings as well. Slow for the application kind of explains why nobody defines exactly what a slow powder is. What's 'slow' for a 222Rem is not 'slow' for a 30/378Weatherby.

In my reloading, any cartridge with the capacity to use anything approaching say the 4350s in burn rates and slower I get hesitant to reduce charges below 90% loading density, and I light them with a magnum primer. I have used large cases with reduced loads ... but the powder is generally a very fast one such as one of my favourite reduced 375H&H loads that used H4227, or 358Win loads with Blue Dot. Still light them up with a magnum primer though.

But yes ... 4831 type powder in a 243Win is a No-No for reduced volume loads. I'd not be going below the starting load and if I knew the rifle well, I'd be starting a bit up from the starting load anyway and using a hotter primer rather than a milder one.
Cheers...
Con

[GaCop]

That's a very old can of IMR powder, haven't seen the metal cans in YEARS! Definitely NOT 4831 in that can. As stated, use it for fertilizer.

[foxx]

No problem. As stated, the exact why of SEE hasn't been nailed. It's been suggested to be as a result of rough throats that temporarily catch the projectile and allow pressures to skyrocket, flash over of powder charges, 'smouldering' charges (smouldering isn't quite the right word as we're dealing with time in the tens to hundreds of milliseconds) that release decomposition gases that then ignite, pressure waves coinciding ... lots of theory but not much hard evidence because its never been replicated in a laboratory.

But it's always been low density charges of slow for the application powders that caused the issue, possibly with heavy deterrant coatings as well. Slow for the application kind of explains why nobody defines exactly what a slow powder is. What's 'slow' for a 222Rem is not 'slow' for a 30/378Weatherby.

In my reloading, any cartridge with the capacity to use anything approaching say the 4350s in burn rates and slower I get hesitant to reduce charges below 90% loading density, and I light them with a magnum primer. I have used large cases with reduced loads ... but the powder is generally a very fast one such as one of my favourite reduced 375H&H loads that used H4227, or 358Win loads with Blue Dot. Still light them up with a magnum primer though.

But yes ... 4831 type powder in a 243Win is a No-No for reduced volume loads. I'd not be going below the starting load and if I knew the rifle well, I'd be starting a bit up from the starting load anyway and using a hotter primer rather than a milder one.
Cheers...
Con

Fascinating. I have read not to go below minimum loads but never knew why. I have also wondered, then, how people talk about making reduced or light loads, but never bothered to pursue the issue.

What really has me thinking here is it sounds like it is more dangerous than exceeding max loads because you can't necessarily "creep cautiously down" looking for signs of too much pressure before safely proceeding lower. If the theory you describe is correct, a catastrophic accident could occur one time and not the other with the same light load, with no warning signs as you approach that situation.

[earl39]

Fascinating. I have read not to go below minimum loads but never knew why. I have also wondered, then, how people talk about making reduced or light loads, but never bothered to pursue the issue.

What really has me thinking here is it sounds like it is more dangerous than exceeding max loads because you can't necessarily "creep cautiously down" looking for signs of too much pressure before safely proceeding lower. If the theory you describe is correct, a catastrophic accident could occur one time and not the other with the same light load, with no warning signs as you approach that situation. that is correct

[Blitzfike]

All of the lore I have been exposed to over the years warns specifically about reduced loads with ball powders. I load lots of ball powders and almost universally I ignite them with magnum primers. I shoot reduced loads in rifles and have for years, but not with ball powders. I use pistol or shotgun powder in several, and non ball rifle powders in others. There is a lot of info out there on reduced power rifle loads, google it and as with anything else on the internet, check many other sources before you commit to a particular course of action. as to being more dangerous than exceeding maximum loads, I don't think so, exceed the max load in a dangerous way and it will get you every time, minimum loads with the wrong powders maybe will get you. Good luck to you.

[foxx]

Dangerous is dangerous. I agree. But my point, based on my limited understanding and assumptions is that, with hot loads, when "CREEPING forward", you may see SIGNS of trouble maybe before getting catastrophically too hot, but improperly reducing loads can get you into trouble without any physical evidence of the situation as you approach the conditions that cause it. It seems that you might get away with it for a while, then, when the stars align just right... BANG! You're screwed.

[emtrescue6]

Dangerous is dangerous. I agree. But my point, based on my limited understanding and assumptions is that, with hot loads, when "CREEPING forward", you may see SIGNS of trouble maybe before getting catastrophically too hot, but improperly reducing loads can get you into trouble without any physical evidence of the situation as you approach the conditions that cause it. It seems that you might get away with it for a while, then, when the stars align just right... BANG! You're screwed.

Correct....reduced loads, especially in some calibers (243 being one) and certain powders (the 4831's being one) are well known to be problematic with reduced loads. Working with reduced loads should always be approached with knowledge and extreme caution.

My reply several posts back that Jamie enjoyably took out of context, was in regards to the very limited information he posted. Anyone that came in to this thread part-way or only read some of the posts would have no idea what that post meant....as nowhere in this thread has clasiccannons ever really posted complete information in one post...heck, am I the only one that caught the comment about him saying the white sparks were because he loaded blanks? He may have been trying to make a funny, but I found it disturbing. This whole thread is a train-wreck...what reloader doesn't get concerned when a load calls for 40g+ of a particular powder, but the case fills up with only 30g? Worse yet, they don't question the 25% difference and simply proceed to press a bullet in on top of it and commence to shoot it....holy hell batman!

[Jamie]

........My reply several posts back that Jamie enjoyably took out of context

Nothing was taken out of context. You blasted me and my statement because you failed to read what was posted. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Blitzfike]

Dangerous is dangerous. I agree. But my point, based on my limited understanding and assumptions is that, with hot loads, when "CREEPING forward", you may see SIGNS of trouble maybe before getting catastrophically too hot, but improperly reducing loads can get you into trouble without any physical evidence of the situation as you approach the conditions that cause it. It seems that you might get away with it for a while, then, when the stars align just right... BANG! You're screwed.

Sure can't argue with that... Jim

[ClassicCannons]

Hi You all
Just got back from Florida and was shocked by all the replies. And i guess this is a good topic and perhaps it will help others like me that are a novice to reloading and i will definitely get those books and i thank you all for the help.

As far as my trip to Fl it turned out to be a nigth mare because the nursing facility is really screwing my Mom over and to top it off the so called nice neighbor that was suppose to be keeping my moms valuable safe was a crook and to top it off i almost got arrested because i called the Sheriff to report it.

However she got back her TV and a empty jewerly box but the box was all she really wanted back because i made it when i was a Kid back in the 70,s.

It takes all types i guess. So i got to go back next month and go to court to get the $8,100.00 back that the Rehab center took when they took her to get cashiers checks from the bank. I asked them why they did it because i,m the POA and she has altimers or however you spell And ya she had secondary insurance besides Medicare and blue cross to cover long term care.

I hope God has a special place for these scum bags. I can,t believe how these people come out of the woodwork when someone gets ill.

They even stole the little 25 cal colt she had wish i had pictures of it it wasn,t worth a whole hell of a lot it had sentimental value.

So as far as reloading i,m putting it on hold i cleaned the barrel with gun cleaning solvent as best as i can so it doesn,t pit if its not to far gone.

Again thanks to all of you on your help Got to go bed it was a long flight and had to drive a few hundred miles.

Perhaps the only good that came from this Florida ordeal is that i didn,t continue with the reloading but i did have a gut feeling about the powder and i should of looked it up first. And again i never shot any of those Brass bullets because that gut feeling was their for that also and that was why i bought the factory ammo and i,ll probably stay away from reloading anyways and the coehorn mortar i was talking about is a signal only mortar that only 3" dia with a 1" bore and it even has a reduced gomer thats tapered from .875 to .625 with a radius and it,s 4150 alloy steel.

It,s not a large golf ball type

Austin

[limige]

As mentioned ditch the powder it ain't 4831.

Dont buy anything but brand new. Never buy an opened can from anyone.
Get the reloaded data. Nosler has it online for public use. Whatever bullet you choose to use goto that manufacturers book for powder and primer guidelines.

Rifle cases must be trimmed to length skip this and things could end up worst than what just happened.

Always start with the bullet long like kissing the rifling and work back into the case to avoid pressure issues.

Please list what brand model bullet you are using and im sure we can double check the min max load for you.

4831 is a great powder for the 243. Be sure to use large rifle primers.

God bless..

[limige]

http://www.nosler.com/243-winchester/

Nosler suggest 38-42 gr of imr4831 for a 100 gr bullet.

Oh checkout rcbs 505 scale for mechanical scale. Or the chargemaster for electric.

[ClassicCannons]

Will do and again thanks. That powder is already gone And when i get around to reloading i.ll come here first and i,m glad this forum is around some good advise here.

I may just buy factory rounds for now on.

But i may make some bullets out of regular lead thats for bullets. My CNC is pretty good on tolerance,s and i'll be getting i Hope this Mitutoyo Laser mic below I hope i win it for the $305 because they cost around $4-$5 thousand new Highly accurate up to 0.000005 I,m not buying it for the bullets but for the bushings i make for John Deere and it will also work well for the dia of the bullets.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/aQwAAMXQrhdTXZRF/$_57.JPG




As mentioned ditch the powder it ain't 4831.

Dont buy anything but brand new. Never buy an opened can from anyone.
Get the reloaded data. Nosler has it online for public use. Whatever bullet you choose to use goto that manufacturers book for powder and primer guidelines.

Rifle cases must be trimmed to length skip this and things could end up worst than what just happened.

Always start with the bullet long like kissing the rifling and work back into the case to avoid pressure issues.

Please list what brand model bullet you are using and im sure we can double check the min max load for you.

4831 is a great powder for the 243. Be sure to use large rifle primers.

God bless..

[homefrontsniper]

Looks like three kinds of powder?????

[limige]

I highly suggest sticking to pistols if you want to make your own bullets. Screwing with rifles is extremely dangerous. Its not only size and shape but the material as well. Without proper equipment for testing chamber pressures and metal purity your playing a very dangerous game. I am a journeyman machinist as well.

[wiliamr]

Bullet making is a science. You can cast bullets for rifles fairly safely, you can purchase bullets from one of the reputable manufacturers, but most anything else may end up in disaster. Internal ballistics is a serious level of mathematics, that is affected by, bullet mass, material, weight (NO MASS AND WEIGHT ARE NOT THE SAME), the propellant charge weight, type. The case internal shape, and about 30 other factors. It is not just as simple as sitting down and turning out a bullet made of brazing rod. My suggestion, buy a couple books on reloading, go sit in the bedroom with no tv, no radio and read, reread and then read the book backwards.There are a lot of folks who have been injured/killed because they did not understand all that goes into reloading. Reloading is safe and rewarding, but only if done correctly and safely. I have been reloading since the mid 70's. Made some mistakes and been lucky.