New rifle, first groups! AMAZING!

[foxx]

D.LD

I think 5 is better than 3 because you can better tell if all 5 are tight. Theoretically, you could shoot a dozen bullets at a dozen different targets, measure how far each is from the center, but it is quicker to just shoot them all at the same spot and measure the one furthest away. Shoot 5 or 10 at the same spot, and don't let the barrel heat up so you can see what they all do with a cool barrel. Your concern about bullets walking away as it heats up is true and valid, but not what is done when shooting 5-10 shot group.

Just for kicks I once shot a 15 round group with my 25-06 and it took me maybe a 1/2 hour... it measured just over or just under a 1/2 inch. What I did not know, of course, what was my smallest 5 shot group among them, but I knew I could keep them all inside 1/2. The fun part was pressure was mounting with each shot to not mess it up. One flyer would ruin what I knew was a good group. I would have kept going but I ran outa bullets. I had decided to shoot all I had left when I started it. :)

[D.ID]

Thanks Foxx but you missed my point. His rifle is accurate, my tikka is accurate. If you can repeatably group like that you have an accurate rifle.

[foxx]

You're right. But what if your first three shots grouped a little left of the next two? You would not necessarily know that it happened without measuring how far from the center your furthest round hit.

No biggie, though. Accurate is accurate. :)

[D.ID]

Unless you need more than three, what would it matter? I completely agree that be it at one target or twenty, the more repeatability reference you have the better but ten shot groups serve no purpose other than ten shot groups. Three rounds repeatable is enough to say it's accurate.
Snipers hide gaming rules serve a valuable purpose= preparing for snipers hide games.

[chukarmandoo]

So would we be testing the rifle or the shooter ?!!! I shot close to a 100 rounds yesterday from 100 to 1000 yds. and everywhere in between. After all that I dialed back to zero and fired two rounds to check my zero at 100 and knocked the center out of a one inch dot. So I think thats a good group. I guess I should have fired 3 more, or 8 just to make sure.
Good shooting Not_Infringed!

[foxx]

You're both right. But if you shoot 100 all at the same spot and they are all within 1/2 inch or whatever, you can say you were 100 for 100...

If you took 33 three shot groups and thirty-two of them was a half inch group, and one was only a 1 inch group, you could say, "look, I got 32 half inch groups!" But you haven't necessarily told the whole story.

I don't know, really. I just remember in archery I felt real good about shooting good 6 arrow groups at 90 meters and it just didn't feel the same when I shot 2 good three-arrow groups. In other events we would have 3 shot "ends" or groups. We always strove for "30's" which were 3 "10's". It felt good, that's all.

[D.ID]

In the interest of full disclosure: I feel the best with one shot groups................I aimed, I fired, I hit,I'm done..........Next.

[foxx]

So you subscribe to the "One shot, one kill" philosophy, huh?

[jonbearman]

Nice shooting right there.I was wondering how those barnes would do and now thanks to you I can rest easily after I order some.

[Not_Infringed]

Excellent results!
Please explain the 'bedding with JB Weld'.....

ron

I have a 1 piece scope base, and this method applies here (not so much with twist in rings or 2 piece bases, etc). A 1 piece base screws down on the receiver in front of the ejection port and behind it. While I believe Savage quality and craftsmanship to be tip top, there are real world tolerances and machining that are just never perfect. So when you take a base off the shelf and screw it down tight, there are stresses induced on the base. It might twist a little bit, or bow up or down. So goal is to mount it so it is stress free and perfectly flat and with a 100% contact patch between the base and the receiver. The rings I bought were CNC machined, so what is the point of getting those high quality perfect circles if they are strapped to a thin piece of metal that is inclined to warp when I torque it down?

In a nutshell the process is:

Clean the top of the receiver with a good solvent (brake cleaner)
Clean the bottom of the scope base with a good solvent

I lightly scuffed the bottom of mine with a green Scotch Brite so the JB Weld adheres to it (then used solvent)


Use a release agent and coat the top of the receiver (a popular choice is Kiwi shoe polish)

I also put some on the edges of the scope base (not the bottom)
Make sure you get it in the screw holes for the base and the scope base mounting screws too!


Mix up some JB Weld (the original liquid paste stuff, not the "quick stick")
Put a *light* coat of JB Weld on the scope base
Set the scope base on the receiver carefully aligning the screw holes (you don't want to move and smear it around)
Start threading your mounting screws down
JB Weld will start smooshing out and that is OK.

I like to smoosh a little, and then wipe excess off, then smoosh a little, and wipe excess, etc. Just don't finishing tightening and then wipe it off and disturb the base after it is in its final resting spot!


You don't want to bottom out the screws and squish it all out, but you want to come close. Basically you want as little JB Weld between the base and the receiver as possible.
Now the nerve wracking part.

Let it cure for 4-6 hours and don't touch it or move the gun.


Remove the screws and remove the scope base (by hand if possible).

I had to use a long screw driver and pry it off the receiver leveraging against the ejection port (I was careful and didn't mar the finish and it didn't take hardly any force).


Now is the time to clean up any excess JB Weld on the receiver and the edges of the scope base.
Reattach the scope base and tighten down the screws to their original torque (not a lot).
Finish waiting the proper cure time (12-24 hours).
Remove the scope base and clean all that release agent off of the receiver and screws and screw holes and scope base. Be patient, take your time and do a good job. It is not fun.
Put a very light coating of Lock Tite on the JB Weld and put back on the receiver. This will create a seal and prevent water from seeping in and rusting the receiver.
Torque the base screws down to the manufacturer's specifications and use Lock Tite as needed.


Now since I am a little OCD, I opted for steel (not aluminum) base and rings since the receiver is steel. So as weather changes and it heats and cools (or as shooting heats the gun up), the coefficient of thermal expansion of the materials is the same and the point of impact should shift much less. This also means that the base will not bow up or down between the seasons. Yes I know the scope tube is aluminum, but there is not a lot I can do about that! The JB Weld is a steel based epoxy so its coefficient of thermal expansion should be close the metal parts.

[Not_Infringed]

I do not say this to be a dick but I can't understand how you can gauge the accuracy of a rifle with a 3 round group. I guess from a cold bore perspective it can be helpful but if your using groups to determine accuracy a minimum 5 shot group with 10 being a better indicator.

Give the Snipers Hide Dot Drill a try. This is what I use for practice and it is extremely helpful. Instead of trying to group you shoot one shot at each dot. There are 20 1/2" dots on each target. This will tell you how accurate your rifle really is.

http://www.mytargets.com/target22%20circles%20x20.pdf

Keep in mind this is the first time I dragged the rifle to the range. If you think I am done with developing and testing loads...well you just don't know how deep my addiction is apparently :surprise:

While this is a bull barrel, I do agree that a 5 shot group is pretty realistic. But the logistics of the public range, and wife and kids did not allow for me to spend all day at the range and letting it cool down completely between groups, etc. In fact, I only let the rifle cool once...almost to ambient temperature between groups, but all the rest were fired with a hot barrel, including this .118 MOA average to center group. Was this group lucky? Probably. Could I reproduce it? Probably. But hey, these are hunting bullets! And I am gearing up for a hog hunt...and I doubt it is going to take more than 3 shots to put down a hog! But wait...these aren't even match grade slugs! Just wait until I load some SMK's...

While I agree more groups and more testing and more load development are always a good thing...ideally the number of shots per group needs to match the intended use of a gun. If you shoot competition, slow fire, fast fire, 5 shots, 10 shots, 30 round mag dumps, then your loads, testing, and groups need to work to that goal. If you are a 1 shot one kill from a cold barrel sniper, then that is your goal. To say you need 5 shots groups no exceptions, is not good advice IMHO.

[Not_Infringed]

Nice shooting right there.I was wondering how those barnes would do and now thanks to you I can rest easily after I order some.

I was a little nervous with these 168gr TSX and IMR 4064. Everything I read said these bullets like a .050-.070" jump to the lands. So even at the book starting load, with this deep seating depth, I was still compressed (or right on the verge). I also had a hard time getting the powder to crunch and allow the bullet to seat. The powder just pushed the bullet back out. I wonder if I should have used my Lee Neck Collet sizing die to size the mouth to keep tension on the bullet so it didn't push out? I started at 42.0gr and went to 45.0gr in .5gr increments. There were no signs of pressure and all the primers looked the same. I didn't go more than 45.0gr because I didn't think it would all fit in the case!

[foxx]

I was a little nervous with these 168gr TSX and IMR 4064. Everything I read said these bullets like a .050-.070" jump to the lands. So even at the book starting load, with this deep seating depth, I was still compressed (or right on the verge). I also had a hard time getting the powder to crunch and allow the bullet to seat. The powder just pushed the bullet back out. I wonder if I should have used my Lee Neck Collet sizing die to size the mouth to keep tension on the bullet so it didn't push out? I started at 42.0gr and went to 45.0gr in .5gr increments. There were no signs of pressure and all the primers looked the same. I didn't go more than 45.0gr because I didn't think it would all fit in the case!

Ever try Lee's factory crimp die? Or crimping while seating? or does that introduce more issues than it's worth?

[Rifleshooter308]

Rifle shooter308........................I do not understand why it matters. I say that because a three round followed by a three round followed by a three round will tell you more than a ten round hole. It either groups good or does not.
I have a tikka lite weight that will put three in a 1/4" And then be hot enough to start wondering, Is it a true .25moa gun.........depends on who you ask. Is it accurate? Hell yes. Altho clearly for a limited duration.
Why would I want to waist twenty rounds to track how much the 12th round wonders, Why would spend thirty bucks to find out what number 12 does if all the first three went threw the same hole right were I wanted them and did the job to begin with. The only exception would be if your running a tactical match that requires 12 round in rapid succession.
Practice is great but I fail to under stand why three means nothing but five does.........Not to be a dick but it's retarded.

Three might get you on target; five tells a story; ten or twenty gives the whole picture of how well everything is going which tells a whole lot about the shooter as well. The more rounds the more truth. Flyers are part of the truth. Shooting rounds is why we do this sport so who cares about the cost. It's irrelevent. It's about practice and becoming a better shooter. Sure the rifle is accurate but is it consistent? You can't tell with 3 rounds. You should shoot a dozen rounds at a dozen targets. This tests your ability to adjust. Barrel heat is also irrelevent. Barrels heat up but not enough to make you miss the shot. I rather see a 1" 10 shot group than a .3 three shot group. Most Savage rifles are relatively accurate out of the box. Sighted in correctly you should be able to put two or three close together. But this is a shooting sport not who has the most accurate rifle. Shoot, shoot and shoot some more. Again your a better shooter if you can put 10 rounds in ten 1/2" circles off a bipod prone as opposed to 3 in .3" off bags on a bench.

Again I don't mean to be a dick or a retard but if you post a 3 round group on a serious shooting forum your going to take some heat. Not_Infringed I applaud your dedication to working up your load and finding the most accurate rounds for your rifle. Hand loading is where it's at for ultimate accuracy and more importantly repeatability.

BTW here is a dot drill shot by my 16 year old son last weekend. This is from 100yds prone on a bipod in windy conditions. One shot after another with no break for barrel cool down. The kid is scary!

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r389/danco411/imagejpg2_zpsd11dcf9a.jpg

[foxx]

I've been thinking a lot about this... There's so many aspects to shooting; so many games to play and so many people with different skill sets and ways to measure (compete or not) it all comes down to perspective and intentions.

I know this game your son did was impressive and can be fun. Earlier today I was thinking, however, if I had access to a tactical course with various targets scattered out across a 1,000 yard span, I probably would not be interested in this game. I would be seeking entirely different games that did not challenge me the same way.

Also, I went to the 100 yard range to test some 308 loads... had a perfect 3 shot group (from 100 yds and 15x scope I could not see but one perfect hole that looked like it was maybe .333 diameter) and thought, "hmmm... do I need more to prove the load or not?" "What the heck I'll shoot a couple more just to confirm..." Of course, I was also wondering what you all would say. Well, needless to say, the next couple shots opened up the group to something like 1/2 inch and now I have a couple different loads very close to that same one that I need to consider / test yet. If I stopped at 3 shots, I would have been pretty confident I found my load, but now I am not so sure.

So I ask you guys who don't like 5 shot groups, why not? I am more convinced it helps verify my loads better than 3 shot groups. Doesn't mean you aren't prepping for your game well with 3 shot groups, it just tells me 5 is better than 3. No big deal, though, really.

[foxx]

I'll answer my own question, maybe...

I was shooting a Savage Hog Hunter in a Tacticool stock. If I get 1/3 or 1/2 MOA group at 100 yards, it does not matter if I can do better. The reality is it's good enough for practical shooting exercises and if I do make 1/3 MOA 3 or 5 shot groups with that rifle and load, the only difference between them and the 1/2 MOA or 3/4 MOA shot groups (at 100yds) is essentially luck. Yes? No? Does it even matter?

[Rifleshooter308]

It doesn't matter Foxx. You hit the nail on the head. Whatever works for you. Shooting at 100 yards is a lot different than 1000. And there is a difference between load development and practicing to be as good as you can be. Load development to me is about consistency. Finding the node and best charge for your select bullet. I want to know how they will open up after 3, 5 then 10 shots and groups are good for that. The dot drill for me is just practice. 20 shots, 20 targets in steady time. Your barrel will heat up and your consistency too. Seeing how it opens shot to shot and adjusting. It's not easy and great for honing skills and being consistent.

I shoot at MTC in Lake City which is a 1k UKD range with 12x18" steel targets from 300 to 1050 yards. They move the targets every week so it's usually new every time you go. It's the best game there is. You have to range them, dial them, call the wind and shoot. Best to have a spotter to walk you in. The wind is a ***** and the hardest thing for me. Shooting 40 rounds of dot drills at 100 yards 3 times a week has helped immensely.

Where do you shoot in Grand Blanc? I'm in Fenton and practice at Fenton Lakes. Maybe we can shoot sometime and share data. I run a .260 and .308.

Dan

[eddiesindian]

Just curious why you think the rifle will produce tighter groups as more shots are fired? I am not trying to argue, but learn. Are you referring to barrel break in? What are your thoughts about using copper solvent on the barrel? Does the copper help seal the machining marks and imperfections in the rifling?

My elevation is about 700' above sea level. 3,800' is pretty high! I guess that is why your FPS is fast too.

Also, have you shot much 180gr projectiles from a 1:10 in 308Win? Everything I read says its not worth it and 168gr is the heaviest/optimum bullet for a 308. But I wonder if the folks that say that are using 1:12 or 1:14 twist?

yes to all the above (except to the 180,s havent tried them yet.)
Seeing as how your at lower altitudes, you may see those 168,s slow down a bit too much at extended distance,s. There known for getting squiggly when they,ve gone transonic. Ive been using 168,s for the past 30 yrs and have never seen the 168,s keyhole but then again Im at higher elevations. You may be suprised as to how well that 1-10twist does with simple 150,s
As far as cleaning copper from the rifling?...thats a loaded question. You may get 10 different shooter give you 10 different opinions. All I can tell you is what Ive personally expierenced with my rigs.
IMO...barrel break in just doesnt happen in the 1st 40 rds...it takes more than that.
With that said, I start working on load development asap to see what that particular barrel likes/dislikes. I know the outcome is subject to change a bit but at least I have a good starting point.
More often than not, Ive already sent a few 100 down the tube when I start seeing certain consistantcy.
Once that happens, Ill clean the barrel with dedicated copper removing solvents, re-evaluate my load,s. More often than not,Ive found the groupings to go back right to where they were with more rds sent down the barrel. Once that happens, I wont clean the barrel with copper solvents again untill I see a drastic change in my poi. I use solvents that removed powder fouling/grime.
Working at a Ford Dealership has its advantages because Im able to look down my barrel using a high end HD Snap-On Bore scope with clear magnification and down load what I see onto a pc in HD for before and after comparisons.
Reloading/shooting/care/procedures are so subjective it,ll make your head spin.
Once you find what works for you.......then stick with it.

[D.ID]

I would not go as far as to say I don't like 5 shot groups, or ten shot groups etc etc. More data is always better than less data but to me grouping outside of load development and trouble shooting is a waist. I do of course have to acknowledge thats all some folks do with there rifle and thats all good but outside my general thought process as it holds no allure to me.
.
I think those guys that would bother giving heat on those "serious shooting forums" are kinda queer.
I do hope you can pardon me for saying so, just the truth.
.
If your SELLING a rifle as a .2 moa rifle a defined standard is necessary.
If your rifle is impressing you enough to post a celebratory pic for the purpose of sharing you excitement with like minded folks...........I just do not think it matters enough to lose sleep over.
More info is always better and to each there own......Have fun with it and be aware I will gladly share in anyones enthusiasms........even if only three rounds at a time.

[Rifleshooter308]

I guess it all comes down to what you do with your rifle. If you take your rifle out once a year for deer hunting and you know from your 3 round group you going to hit the kill zone on a deer from 200 yards and in then your good to go. If all you do is shoot from the bench and don't shoot alot of rounds then no big deal. If you run tactical matches or F-Class or across the range competitions then you need better data than any 3 round group can give you. Most shooters are happy and excited when they shoot a good group and want to share that with other shooters. I have no issues with this. This is a cool and laid back forum. Those shooters on other forums are not "queer" they are just much more serious about it. Many of them are former military and LEO shooters and strive for perfection. Nothing wrong with that and we all can learn from them. One thing I learned was that the more data you ge the better and you don't get much data from 3 round groups other than enough to adjust your POA.

I am striving to become a shooter who can go to any range/event/area and from any position (prone,bench, offhand, kneeling, etc) identify, range and engage any target out to 1000+ yards. It's a tall order and takes a ton of practice. Fortunately I have a private 400 yard steel range in Northern Michigan and belong to MTC with the 1000 yard UKD range. Here at home all I have available to practice regularly is a club with 100 yards. So you make do shooting as much as you can and the dot drill is the best practice I can do there. My goal is 200 rounds a week time permitting.