.223 VLP - What Next?

[MikeCTX]

If you have followed, I have been chasing the elusive bugholes, with the mod 12 VLP in .223. Have worked up load after load of 69gr SMK's with Varget and still find the best group to be .5, with the average grouping to be closer to 1.0 to .8. Now, I figure the rifle can do better than that but also had some doubt about the driver behind it...until one of the guys at the local range let me shoot his 20TAC (Savage Target Action, Pac-Nor barrel, SSS LRBR stock). First time with the rifle, and 5 shot group of .225, now it could have been a fluke, it very well could have been the rifle - but really makes me wonder why I can't at lest get the VLP to group at least to an average of .5 or better.

Now I don't expect to get .2's or even .3's all the time, but .8 to 1.0+? So, the same guy and I were talking at the range today, and he agree's there must be something else. Granted it could be my handloads, since I am pretty new at it, but then seems like the quality factory ammo I have shot would give better groups. My question is what should I look at next? We discussed it, he suggested maybe having a smith give the crown a look and maybe having it re-crowned. The crown does not look bad, but it does seem to grab some fibers off a Q-tip when you check it. The rifle has between 450-500 rounds down it now, so it should be pretty well broken in, and it has a good cleaning after each range session with Butch's Bore Shine until the patches are clean. Front bag is a Caldwell Rock (that does get the job done) and the rear bag is a Protektor with heavy sand and it is working as it should. Brass is Lapua, powder is checked agaist good digital scale, primers have been Remington 71/2 BR and CCI SR BR.

Short of having the barrel re-crowned, and doing a glass bed job on the stock any other ideas?

Thanks in advance for your input.

[outlawkyote]

Start with bedding and crowning. From there it starts getting more expensive.
Concentricity guages, neck turning tools, custom reloading dies, Ogave measuring tools, weighing each bullet and measuring it for consistancy. The list keeps going but until the actions bedded and the crown is perfect, none of the after mentioned tools are going to help anything.

Something cheap to do in the meantime..................

Weigh your cases and group by weight. Weigh your bullets and group by weight (bullets can vary in weight and length) Are you de-buring your flasholes? Its a cheap tool.

Something else. 69gr bullets wont shoot good groups at 100 yds all the time, try some groups at 300 yds after the bullet has settled down
If your groups are still 1" at 300yds, you are shooting a good load. When Im shooting heavy bullets, 3/4" groups are common at 100 yds but, the same load has been known to still shoot 3/4" groups at 300yds.

[1Shot]

..Stick with the 69 Sie's, Varget, Rem 7 1/2's & work on it ...Bouncing back & forth on primers is not going to solve anything until you get that load settled in...Playing with seating depth will help bring it in...But from what I seen on your last targets you had powder adjustments to make...Then you started bouncing around on diff. bullet weights & primers...So go figure...lol, nobody said it was going to be easy... ;)...

[dcloco]

Work UP to this load....but in the multiple 1:9 twist Savages that I own...this is THE load (works perfectly in AR15's as well).

69 gr HPBT (Sierra or Nosler), Rem 450 primer, 25.0 of H4895.....and play with the seating depth.

I am one of the unlucky few....that have not got good accuracy from Varget....in 223's or 308's...go figure.

[MikeCTX]

..Stick with the 69 Sie's, Varget, Rem 7 1/2's & work on it ...Bouncing back & forth on primers is not going to solve anything until you get that load settled in...Playing with seating depth will help bring it in...But from what I seen on your last targets you had powder adjustments to make...Then you started bouncing around on diff. bullet weights & primers...So go figure...lol, nobody said it was going to be easy... ;)...


Don't disagree with your thoughts at all 1Shot, which is why went back to the 69 SMK, 71/2 RemBR and worked Varget loads from 24.4gr (last decent load) to 25.7 gr (started to see primers get flat there). Did adjust the seating depth as well, but while adjusting powder which may not have been the right way to try it. Have burned through the stash of 69 SMK, so will have to pick up some more (400 in the past couple of months). Thanks for the input as always, guess this means more trips to the range (oh darn ;) )

outlawkyote - Thanks for your thoughts, have picked up the StoneyPoint (Hornady) OAL and Headspace gauges and a Sinclair bullet comparator (yeah eating away at those $ but not to bad yet :o) . Not always weighing the bullets, but have some - good practice at least until I get the loads to settle down. The VLP is a 7 twist, if that makes a difference. Not de-burring the flashholes and yes that is a cheap tool..will take care of that one.

dcloco - I keep wondering if we share the same bad luck with Varget - but hey, have only gone through 2lbs of it so far, so will keep at it for a while.

Nope never figured it would be easy.. :)

[outlawkyote]

Not de-burring the flashholes and yes that is a cheap tool..will take care of that one.




Thats a BIG item to have for accuracy. Must have those burs cut out or your powder wont ignite "consistantly" from case to case. I bet this will go a long ways torward accuracy. Which brass are you using? Some brass has worse burs than others but "all" are benifited by de-buring flasholes.
Have you measured your runnout? Its always possable youve got a bad set of reloading dies that are introducing runnout into your cases to?

[MikeCTX]

Thats a BIG item to have for accuracy. Must have those burs cut out or your powder wont ignite "consistantly" from case to case. I bet this will go a long ways torward accuracy. Which brass are you using? Some brass has worse burs than others but "all" are benifited by de-buring flasholes.
Have you measured your runnout? Its always possable youve got a bad set of reloading dies that are introducing runnout into your cases to?

Brass is Lapua most recently, prior to that was Remington (which would need deburring). Have not meausred runout, dies have been Lee collet to neck size and seating die, have recently picked up the Redding Type S neck die (which seemed to be a problem but I think it was the operator setting it up, rounds would chamber tight when closing the bolt but that is better now after working with the die). Competition seating die, but have not used it yet, not wanting to add more variables.

To measure runout would need a concentricity gauge, right? Have thought about one, but not sure which one to get - might save me $ in the long run though.

Oh, and did put a loupe on the barrel at the crown, it does grab just a bit when using a Q-tip and can see - what looks like very small burrs on one side - not from the rifleing, but only on one side.

[groupshooter22]

I would not use the bushing die, when you use a bushing not all of the neck gets sized. After a couple times using the bushing die you will get a donut at the bottom of the neck and that wont help r/o. Ask me how I know I have 100 pcs of Lapua brass that I can only use for 40g bullets until I buy something to remove the donut. I now use a collet die and a redding comp seater. Hope this helps.

[dcloco]

I would not use the bushing die, when you use a bushing not all of the neck gets sized. After a couple times using the bushing die you will get a donut at the bottom of the neck and that wont help r/o. Ask me how I know I have 100 pcs of Lapua brass that I can only use for 40g bullets until I buy something to remove the donut. I now use a collet die and a redding comp seater. Hope this helps.


Just cut the donut out...only have to do it once. I use a Forester or Sinclair neck turner.

[1Shot]

...Are you checking your loaded rounds with a comparitor off the ongive..??..Makes a big diff. to keep them the same lenght...If you're measuring off the tip you're wasteing your time...Show me a target with 25grs of Varget at +.010 off the lands when you get some loaded up...Sometimes little moves in powder can be the bell ringer...I was playing with this load awhile back...As you can see on the top target not bad..But I new I could sqeeze it down some...Have to keep my standards high..lol..I ran a couple of wet patches through the bore to clean it up some..Along with some dry 1's..Then I bumped it & shot a fouler outside the target to powder the bbl. some...Then went to work as you can see...1 to the left some & the other 3 wa-la...lol.. ;D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/BVSS.jpg

[MikeCTX]

Yes on the ogive, set bullet depth based off ogive not over all lenght tip to base. Have to hope the 69 SMK's come in sooner than later. On order from 2 different on-line sources, as they are not to be found local..guess I bought the last few around. When they come in will load them on top of 25gr Varget and +.010 off the lands.

[MikeCTX]

Well, got some 69 gr SMK's in and it DID NOT rain this weekend (unlike last weekend Yikes!!)

69.1gr SMK, 25gr Varget (each load trickled to exact weight), Remington 71/2BR primer. Brass listed below

The bullets were weighed and separated - 68.9,69.0,69.1, etc (interesting to note that most were either 69.1 or 69.2). Rounds were loaded as follows:
1.Fire formed and neck sized
2.Fire formed, neck sized and ran through body die to bump shoulder back
3.Fire formed and full length sized
4.New Lapua brass not re-sized

Results, 1 & 2 were OK (around 1 inch) targets not posted

69gr SMK, 25 gr Varget, Rem 71/2BR primer not bad other than the flyer caused by me

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/SraJ13l9GWI/AAAAAAAAAlU/71u2jDE7Q0k/s512/69SMK92009FLS.jpg

69gr SMK, 25gr Varget, Rem 71/2BR primer, also not bad.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/SraJ2tYnQ1I/AAAAAAAAAlY/eBLuiWeop14/s512/69SMK092009NB.jpg

These two were the best I had, and helped show me part of the issue is the guy behind the rifle shooting it. Still spending more time fighting the rifle in the bags (mostly the from rest). POA will be off (way off some times,) after sending one down range. May have to make coarse adjustment, when I figured only a minor adjustment would be needed..

1shot, more Varget (.1 to .2gr)? or same load and try to get the nut behind driving better (these are almost there it seems).

Thanks,

[BrentWin]

Opinions are like belly buttons-everyone has one, so here is mine.

Stick with your best load so far and play with seating depth.

Anytime you have a flyer, even if you think it was you, set that pc. of brass aside.

After you have a group of "proven" brass and a seating depth that the rifle likes, if you are still getting fliers spend $25.00 on a Lee collet die. Runout may be your problem

Recrowning the barrel wouldn't hurt anything and might help.

[dcloco]

How many rounds down the barrel?

What optics are you using?

[MikeCTX]

Thanks for the input guys.

Optics - using a Votex Crossfire 8-32x50

Rounds down the barrel, as of this morning it is right at 500.

Good call on setting the brass aside on flyers, will get in the habit on that.

Ran through 50 rounds today (which is what I try to do each session), fire 5 shot groups per target. Learned the following today (which I expected to find) - neck size only groups were right at 1 inch and chambered fine, neck size and bumping the shoulder were tight to chamber (need to work on the die setup), but were around 1 inch also. The full length size and the new brass gave results shown.

[1Shot]

69gr SMK, 25gr Varget, Rem 71/2BR primer, also not bad.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/SraJ2tYnQ1I/AAAAAAAAAlY/eBLuiWeop14/s512/69SMK092009NB.jpg


1shot, more Varget (.1 to .2gr)? or same load and try to get the nut behind driving better (these are almost there it seems).

Thanks,


...Bump it .1gr from what I'm seeing here...With everything else the same...Where did the 1 up by the bull come from...You pull it..??..lol...
...Grasshopper needs alittle more practice... ;)....Pebble in palm is almost in reach... :)...

[stevec]

Mike, I have fought fliers in different calibers over the years and finally figured out (with the help of friends) that I was not shooting consistantly. Me, Not the rifles. every time I pulled the trigger I was holding on to the gun differently. I.E. Thumb over the stock or not, more cheek pressure on the stock from one shot to the next, stock to far forward or back tin the bags, shoulder pressure against the stock, stock canted in the bags, and the biggest one, not shooting over wind flags. After getting better @ these things I started shooting much better groups and found tuning a rifle much easier.

I'm not saying you are haveing probs with any or all of these things, just that these sure helped me.

Steve

[MikeCTX]

Hey Steve, your words come a the perfect time since the light bulb came on today. It is the guy behind the trigger that is causing the flyers (at least I think it is!). Just as you mentioned the thumb over the stock, trying to keep pressure off the rifle as much as possible, check weld, etc were all factors I considered MORE today than I think I have in the past.

Today it started to feel like it was coming together, not there yet but getting there. Yeah 1shot, grasshopper needs more practice ;D - and darn that means more trips to the range ::) But hey if it was easy everyone could do it (oh wait, lots of folks DO get it right). Just means I have to slow down, run through the mental check-list, set the rifle up in the bags the same each time, hold the rifle the same each time, etc.

Thanks for the input and will keep this thread updated as to progress..

Oh and this is the reason I feel like I can get the groups better (a friend from the ranges rifle - .20 Tactical, Savage Target RBLP, 27in Pac-Nor 1:11 barrel, his fire forming loads - 39gr SBK).

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/Sra0LZ_l_PI/AAAAAAAAAlc/Bgp4nq7sfzA/s512/20TAC.jpg

[ThorBird]

Nice shooting.

[dcloco]

Thanks for the input guys.

Optics - using a Votex Crossfire 8-32x50

.....


What power are you using? If above 20x, bump it down to 16/18....I got a dollar that says your group size goes down.

Targets - change your targets to something like this:

http://www.gunloads.com/modules/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=509

Why? Allows you to have a spot for your horizontal and vertical lines in your scope to line up on. For instance, your target is the lower right center. Your vertical crosshair should align with the upper target and your horizontal crosshair should align with the lower left. If you are using a scope level, this will help as well.