Strive for accuracy, don't settle for grouping

[foxx]

Yep. I think those will allow you to find the setting that will, under ideal conditions, hit your bull, and mark it somehow. Sometimes that means having graduated turrets and then remembering or writing down whatever the setting is. Sometimes it means having a moveable mark on the turrets that can be loosened with a set screw and then tightened again once you've found it. That way you know where to turn them to return to that setting. That will only work, though, if the internal mechanics are good enough to move the reticle in a precise manner so that each click of a turn move the reticle the same amount, today and a year from now. Not all scopes are built with that objective in mind. For general deer hunting purposes, out to 300 yards, as you say, it really is not necessary. That is why my deer rifles are usually set to hit 1.5 inches high at 100 yards... If I limit my shots to 300 yards, I am confident I will put the bullet somewhere in the vitals if I aim for the center. Depending upon the range, it may hit high or low, but certainly within 3 inches either way. Dead is dead. :)

[foxx]

Another reason you might want that is if you hunt deer and varmints with the same rifle. In that case, you will want two different bullets. For 25-06, for example, you may want to prep for a light weight explosive hollow point varmint bullet that flies different than a more durable and heavier deer bullet. If you can mark your turrets, and they are "repeatable" when adjusted, you can easily and quickly adjust it for either bullet, even in the field.

[mazda3gun]

The scope I have has a BDC reticle though. It's super thin, to me anyway, so it would/could be suitable for longer range target. Along with the Spot On app, I can supposedly shoot my 165gr CoreLokt ammo out to 500yds at the last circle doodad-thingy. Haven't tried it yet to see how 'spot on' it really is.
I have the utmost desire to slay some coyotes with my 110! I just can't find any factory ammo below 150gr in .30-06 yet. I'd be interested in selling the pelts if I take some, just don't wanna destroy the hide with a 165-180gr bullet.

I guess I might develop a different understanding if I shot long range competition. But I don't and I don't hand load. I've always just gone to range, shot a handful of different firearms for the heck of it, and it's always been with factory ammo. Hunted with factory ammo most my life too. The only thing I've ever reloaded was shotgun shells when my granddad and I got into a few skeet/trap events, that was only for the sake of low recoil and high quantity of ammo.
Factory ammo has always been good enough for myself, my dad, and my granddad. I can't think of any time, any of our guns ever misfired using factory ammo -I guess we're lucky! Granted, my family has only ever shot Federal, Rem, and Win ammo. If I can ever remember a misfire, it would be with a .22, cheaply made ammo no matter what name is on it.

[foxx]

You may want to do some research on "terminal" ballistics, which is a study of how a bullet reacts after hitting various types of targets. If you want to save a pelt, you would actually want a heavier bullet, not lighter. A heavy, FMJ, with sturdy jacket for example, will punch a clean, small hole thru the animal, whereas a lightweight hollow point bullet with light, frangible jacket will likely do more damage to the pelt, but be more likely to kill quickly even with less precise shot placement.

Another consideration is some bullets will be more likely to ricochet even after hitting your target. That can be a cause for a safety concern as well.

[bflee]

If you dont handload you would probably be surprised with the accuracy you coud achieve. It would make you throw thise other factory rounds away. Its also alot cheaper. I have never had a FTF with my handloads but I have only been doing it for a couple years. Its a long time in round count though!

[mazda3gun]

If you dont handload you would probably be surprised with the accuracy you coud achieve. It would make you throw thise other factory rounds away. Its also alot cheaper. I have never had a FTF with my handloads but I have only been doing it for a couple years. Its a long time in round count though!

I wasn't saying handloads would misfire over factory. It's more of a common assumption that factory loads can/will misfire. Was only giving a personal for instance statement.

I just don't have the means, knowledge, time, or desire really to load my own rifle ammo.
:focus:

[bflee]

I have a load for my 6.5CM that I worked up. After I go target shooting I go home and immediately reload the brass I shot that day. Most of the time about sixty rounds. Within an hour or so( i dont care if the brass is shiny) I have all of them ready to shoot again. Alot cheaper!

[foxx]

Mazda, you're a good guy. I think, though, that you have some misconceptions about the reasons different people shoot for and hand load for various target and hunting purposes. There is a lot to the sport, there are many facets and different objectives for all. I think we've tried to answer your questions about why many of us, at first glance, APPEAR to be shooting for groups rather than accuracy. The fact is, we are also shooting for accuracy and consistency and do, in fact, aim for the center of the bull, real or imaginary.

I am sure, if you research the sport a little more, you will come to understand.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

I shoot for the most accurate group. I'll aim at the center black dot. Bullet holes are hard to see on a black background. The bullets will print off the center of the target. ( In a white area) I can see them. I'll keep my aim point at the center of the target.
If I wanted to hit the bull, I would adjust the glass to the center of the target. Once I know that the group will print where I want it, I can adjust as needed. And no use adjusting the scope so the bullets will hit the center of the target. I'll shoot a 5 shot group. If the first one or two can't be covered with a dime, it's no use aiming for the bull. My load work is not done.

[mazda3gun]

Mazda, you're a good guy. I think, though, that you have some misconceptions about the reasons different people shoot for and hand load for various target and hunting purposes. There is a lot to the sport, there are many facets and different objectives for all. I think we've tried to answer your questions about why many of us, at first glance, APPEAR to be shooting for groups rather than accuracy. The fact is, we are also shooting for accuracy and consistency and do, in fact, aim for the center of the bull, real or imaginary.

I am sure, if you research the sport a little more, you will come to understand.

Thank you sir. I appreciate it.
I do admit to being stubborn and very opinionated, just how I was raised I suppose. And the art of shooting for hunting and sustenance are my core, not the competition aspect. I do have a lot to learn and am here specifically for that. I'm aware I've come off 'abrasive' at times and I apologize.
It just truly boggles my mind, in the way I was taught to shoot, to merely hope for a close grouping of shots over hoping for one single dead-center bullseye shot.

However, can't believe I just remembered this, when I was taking my Rifleman's Merit Badge at Boy Scout camp one year, the goal was 5 shots covered by a quarter! DUH! I've been such a (insert "bad words" here because the PC Police will edit me anyway) all along and one of my major teachings in shooting has been what bothered me so much...
IRONY!

[foxx]

Mazda, what we are doing is not about "hope." It is about setting our scopes so that they do NOT hit the center of the target while testing loads and equipment for consistent accuracy. It is about being able to see the center of the bull without damaging it and measuring within 1/100ths of an inch how accurate and consistent we can make our equipment and selves perform. Once we have done that, it is a very easy task to move the reticle or "cross hairs" to the center of the bull and then HIT the center of the bull.

When I measure a group of 5 shots to within 1/3 of an inch from center to center of the most "off" shot, I am not missing. It is not luck. It is calculated precision and demonstrates skill at many levels. When I am done, I can demonstrate to you another skill, that being, to be able to move the reticle to the center of the bull so that I can, with near certainty, hid the center of the bull with my next shot and every subsequent shot thereafter.

I am sorry, but I am thru trying to explain this concept.

Have a good day. :)

[sniper15545]

Well its like this, If a person can shoot .25 MOA groups consistently, I'm sure he could hit your "Bullseye" if he wanted to. Bench shooting for some, Is all about grouping and with grouping come's "Accuracy".

[D.ID]

The only time I "group" is during load work up, initial zeroing or trouble shooting to find a problem.
All the rest of my target practice is shot placement at varying distances. Shooting at paper or steel more than once means I screwed up.
.
During load development on the other hand it is a waist of time and ammo to chase the bulls eye and often times need to dial 3" out of the bull just to keep track of different loads without hanging ten targets for no reason at all.

[sharpshooter]

How many of you guys actually shoot in any competition?..........and what kind?

[rjtfroggy]

Fred to answer your question, I do. I shoot 7 IBS score matches a year 100 & 200 yard. I also shoot at least once a week, shooting for small groups and checking loads, as the BR season approaches I will start shooting score targets to get used to trying to hit that 1/16th dot @ 100 (dot@100). Not as easy as it sounds when you factor in the wind, the temp. and the woobly wooden benches where these matches are held, especialy when most practice is done at solid, dead level concrete benches.

[foxx]

I have never participated in or attended a rifle shooting competition, Fred. I think I would like to do so, though. I know very little about it. I am an accomplished competitive archer. I preferred outdoor "long distance". We considered 90 meters "long". Sounds funny, maybe. We were happy when we could keep 5-6 arrows within a 3 circle at 100 yds. Sometimes I wonder how many rifleman could do the same shooting offhand. :)

Why do you ask?

[mazda3gun]

Everyone seems to be getting all hot n bothered about this. No need to bunch up the panties folks, I'm just curious and listening to all the responses.

Maybe, since I don't handload, I have some preconceived notion about all this(I really don't). I'm here to learn.

[Hotolds442]

Maybe it's the way you come off.
You ask a question, but when they answer and include a reasonable explanation that doesn't match your opinion, you call BS.
Precisely why I hit the ignore button on your last time out.

[BoilerUP]

Maybe it's the way you come off.

This.

Killing paper is different than killing game, and people have different ways to go about the same thing. Doesn't mean that one person's way is "right" and the other's "wrong", or vice versa.

There are plenty of legitimate reason for point of impact not being the same as point of aim - and hunting or competition shooting are generally not included in those legitimate reasons.

[RamShooter79]

Hi I just found this forum and this topic interest me because I have been shooting groups the last three days for load development. Yesterday I shot forty rounds all had the same bullet weight but different powder charges. I shot some very good groups but the poi and poa were very different b/c I wanted to see just how each different set up performed. I shoot a lot of competition mostly silhouette and everyone one that shoots silhouette will have their scopes usually set up with their zero's on the first animal and then click up from there for the rest of their targets. Dialing a scope up or down in elevation or left and right for windage is easy once you have your zero's set. So the groups you see that aren't centered are probably just someone doing load development and are showing how well a particular group shot