Imr 4064

[thermaler]

Interesting--I've had several 1 lber's and they have all been the same long stick with no variations. There must be a time frame which is associated with the serial/stamps? I just perused through my rather diverse collection of powders--it appears that almost nothing is made in the US--except for Hodgdon's "Superformance" which is a mystery powder that may or may not be similar to what Hornady uses/manufactures for it's ammo? This sounds like commercial reloading powder is highly vulnerable to production vagaries (as we have experienced in the past couple of years).

[eddiesindian]

Must not be cost effective to make propellants in the states?.....
I got so used to metering with Varget/RL-15 for yrs. Last 5 lb,er of RL-15 I was able to get was 2 days before the mishap @ Sandy Cook.
Cant find RL-15 or Varget here locally so thats why I oppted for 4064. Its a dam good propellant but a pain to work with.
I sometimes wish I was a mad scientist with the capabilty of measuring exact burn rates of propellants in the comfort of my garage. jk...

[thermaler]

RL 15 and varget have showed up again at my LGS. I think hit or miss is going to be the way of life from here on in--another driving force in hoarding behavior.

[eddiesindian]

RL 15 and varget have showed up again at my LGS. I think hit or miss is going to be the way of life from here on in--another driving force in hoarding behavior.

The local gun range had Varget in one pound and in 8 pound canisters. when the crisis hit, the nice gent/manager at the lgs/range put a limit as to the amount you could buy per visit, understandably so. a couple of weeks go by and i had intentions on buying an 8lb can but there was none to be found. the manager advised me that "some" club member was buyng the 8lb-ers he had in stcok and reselling them for a profit. "that" member was banned from the gun club but it left everybody high and dry. the manager said he would no longer attempt to get 8lbers of varget any more.
this hole hoarding thing sure is a pain.
if anything?..............its made me shoot more conservetably.
sure would like to get my hands on a 5lb jug of RL-15. Im down to about 2lbs of it. I develope,d darn good loads with that powder and have become very fond of it.......but then again, I guess nothen last forever....

[darkker]

-it appears that almost nothing is made in the US--except for Hodgdon's "Superformance" which is a mystery powder that may or may not be similar to what Hornady uses/manufactures for it's ammo? This sounds like commercial reloading powder is highly vulnerable to production vagaries (as we have experienced in the past couple of years).

There is only one private (non Gov't owned) powder plant in the US, that is the General Dynamics ball powder plant in St. marks, FL. Superformance is canister grade powder, ammo makers don't use canister grade powder; just the reloaders(us).
So all Hodgdon & Win ball powders come from that plant. I don't know the Accurate line well enough, but 2700=414=760; so at least that one too.
Alliant's USA made powders WERE made by ATK in the Militarys Radford Arsenal, since they lost the contact to run the plant; I don't know if BAE will continue that.

Unless it is a "contract" production run, when I say "made by", I mean the non-canister parent.
As an example: SMP 842 is where CFE223 comes from.

[eddiesindian]

http://www.gd-ots.com/ballpowder_military.html

great info.
Because of my location, theres a large bundle of snipers stationed here @ Ft Bliss in El Paso, Tx. They often shoot with us out in the desert valleys on there days off. Gives me a chance to jaw with them and shoot against them. makes for a great sunday. several of them have told me that they do infact use 4064 along with 175gr SMK,s for some on there sniper rifles. Which one,s skip my mind at present but Im sure the miltary version of 4064 is different than from what us civilians/reloaders get.
Real nice group of youngsters. Several of them have done 3-4 tours. They come out often but as usual move on to other base,s.

[thermaler]

There is only one private (non Gov't owned) powder plant in the US, that is the General Dynamics ball powder plant in St. marks, FL. Superformance is canister grade powder, ammo makers don't use canister grade powder; just the reloaders(us).
So all Hodgdon & Win ball powders come from that plant. I don't know the Accurate line well enough, but 2700=414=760; so at least that one too.
Alliant's USA made powders WERE made by ATK in the Militarys Radford Arsenal, since they lost the contact to run the plant; I don't know if BAE will continue that.

Unless it is a "contract" production run, when I say "made by", I mean the non-canister parent.
As an example: SMP 842 is where CFE223 comes from.I use a lot of alliant since it usually works well and works for a wide range of calibers. It appears they import from different sources--I have some canisters that say made in Sweden--others Switzerland, and some neither but with a Virginia address (which I assume is the importer/processor).

[CharlieNC]

Besides the effect of temperature on muzzle velocity, another factor to consider is the effect on barrel time based on whether you are centered in a good charge node or not. You know if you do an OCW/ladder test that at some charges a deviation of a few tenths grain can cause a significant change in the POI, which could have more downrange influence than the velocity effect alone.

[yobuck]

Besides the effect of temperature on muzzle velocity, another factor to consider is the effect on barrel time based on whether you are centered in a good charge node or not. You know if you do an OCW/ladder test that at some charges a deviation of a few tenths grain can cause a significant change in the POI, which could have more downrange influence than the velocity effect alone.

There are lots of things that can affect downrange impact. temps are but one of them.
thats why theres dials on scopes and a valid reason for spotters and spotter shots if possible.
A first round miss is essentually a spotter shot.

[CharlieNC]

Yes, but a a spotter may not help much when you are hunting; first shot better count. On another post the OP is contemplating zeroing in Fla for a hunt in Co, only to use the ballistics calcs to account for the many differences (ie not re-zeroing in Co).

[eddiesindian]

charlie and yobuck
I agree with both of you guys without a dought. Im not a hunter though. Target shooting is my drug of choice. In the mountain valleys where I shoot distance, I have targets permanetly set up from 100 out to 1300. The targets from 900 on out have growth around them to the point that you wont be able to see splash from miss,s. I did "however" find a bald spot at 970 yds where I can actually place a 8"x6" steel target thats stake,d to the ground that electronically activates L.E.D. lights when the targets are hit. They have to be dead on hits to activate the alarm system. I like using that small target to make sure Ive called the wind correctly because i can see splash from miss,s. All targets are electronically activated when hit from 900 on out to 1300.course there bigger targets 16"x16".
I developed the alarms because I got tired of spotters incorrectly calling shots. At one point in time, before I developed the alarms, I found myself having to film myself with my Digigtal HD Camcoder zoomed in at 700. the spotter kept insisting of no hits becuase either he couldnt seee, or he didnt hear the impact of the rd. Seeing as how I was shooting 150gr smks, the hits werent pronounced. Once I got home and pluged the camera into my 52" Hd tele, and invited him over for a look, he changed his train of thought. In he defense,it is hard to hear the hits and at times the steels arent painted over again to see the hits

[CharlieNC]

Sounds like a nice setup you have there! Have you watched the extensive Youtube series Sniper101 by Tiborosorus Rex? He presents a lot of practical information, especially about long-range-ballistic calculations, and one of the episodes dealt with ambient temperature effect on muzzle velocity and the need to have your calcs setup for that. I have done a lot of work with load development based on Optimum Barrel Time (OBT) as related to the results from OCW and found excellent correlation to use this as a tool; and a finding with that process is the extreme sensitivity of POI to the slightest deviation in charge if you are between nodes. That is the factor which is not accounted for when evaluating the effect of temperature by just considering velocity alone, but I don't have a good answer except be sure you are loaded in a wide node.

[eddiesindian]

Our set up is nice. Took alot of back breaking workand time to get it done though. If I had more time and $$, Id make electronic alarm systems for targets from 7 on out. but the way I see it, I think I have enuff for now. Getting ahold of the electronics I need to make the alarm systems is getting thin. I work at an automotive dealership where Im able to get the processors,wiring,sensors for nothien but Ive used all the ones up. There protable and can use them anywhere. Rex is dead on as far as shooting in different temps. Ive got my ballistic calculations dialed in from 40dg,s to 100dg,s @ 10dg temp diff. Ive gone out to the mountain valleys and purposely froze my a** off just to see for myself what happens to the flight of my pills at colder temps. Were not used to the cold weather here. Im glad I did take the time to send-em out to diatance in cold weather.
On this barrel time you speak of....is it optimum/consistant temps of the barrel?

[yobuck]

charlie for a traditional type hunter your correct. but for a long range hunter a spotter is extremly important.
for a traditional hunter shooting at closer distances what difference does all this make anyway?
as for not rezeroing that would be unwise.

[CharlieNC]

"On this barrel time you speak of....is it optimum/consistant temps of the barrel?"
For OBT there is a table developed by Chris Long that gives the barrel times (milli-seconds) for nodes based on shock wave propagation through the barrel. I used Quick Load to calculate the BT for ladder tests for 4 different 308 and 3 223 loads (bullets and powders) and found wide nodes on the targets agreed well with the OBT / Quick Load calculated points. So at this point I am convinced the science is sound; doesn't account for everything but gets you close. I know Quick Load has a provision to alter load temperature but I have not worked with that at all so I don't have an opinion as to how well it predicts that aspect. From other reading, the impact of load temp on velocity has not been as well documented as many other factors in terms of thorough data.

[darkker]

I use a lot of alliant since it usually works well and works for a wide range of calibers. It appears they import from different sources--I have some canisters that say made in Sweden--others Switzerland, and some neither but with a Virginia address (which I assume is the importer/processor).

The stuff I knew WAS made at Radford was shotgun/pistol powder.
With that contract change in mind, here is who actually builds powder(parent/ non-canister grade)
I know there is at least one former com-bloc company producing, but that I can tell no canister grade stuff hits our shelves in any quantity.

General Dynamics - American defense contractor that makes all Canadian-made IMR rifle powders, all Winchester Ball powders, some Accurates, and some Hodgdons.

ATK (American defense company that apparently makes all American-made Alliant powders) - although maybe not now.

Thales (French State-owned company that owns ADI, makes all of Hodgy's "Extreme" rifle powders, plus some IMRs)

Rheinmetall (German owner of Nitrochemie. Makes Reloder-17. Don't know about other commercial powders)

[BW64]

UI just tried IMR 4064 for the first time today & I'm impressed. Shot a group that was less than 3/8" at 100 with 41.9 under a 175 SMK out of my Rem 700 SPS with 26" barrel. Best I could do with Varget was about 5/8". Temp was about 45 degrees. When it warms up again I'll test & post results.


BW

[eddiesindian]

"On this barrel time you speak of....is it optimum/consistant temps of the barrel?"
For OBT there is a table developed by Chris Long that gives the barrel times (milli-seconds) for nodes based on shock wave propagation through the barrel. I used Quick Load to calculate the BT for ladder tests for 4 different 308 and 3 223 loads (bullets and powders) and found wide nodes on the targets agreed well with the OBT / Quick Load calculated points. So at this point I am convinced the science is sound; doesn't account for everything but gets you close. I know Quick Load has a provision to alter load temperature but I have not worked with that at all so I don't have an opinion as to how well it predicts that aspect. From other reading, the impact of load temp on velocity has not been as well documented as many other factors in terms of thorough data.

Interesting.

[eddiesindian]

UI just tried IMR 4064 for the first time today & I'm impressed. Shot a group that was less than 3/8" at 100 with 41.9 under a 175 SMK out of my Rem 700 SPS with 26" barrel. Best I could do with Varget was about 5/8". Temp was about 45 degrees. When it warms up again I'll test & post results.


BW

Nice....
thats a light charge for sure but it defently works...is that a 1-12 twist on your remy

[BW64]

Yes it is 1-12 twist. I shoot a silhouette match once a month out to 1000 yds.& I've hit 10 out of 18. My gun seems to like the slower node which means longer barrel life. :) My shooting buddy just bought a Savage 6br & I'm on the fence about the same purchase. Now if only I could get the CFO to ....................................


BW