Identy crisis?

[red caddy 51]

An interesting question came up for discussion/debate in the shop today.

Question: How do you tell/prove a particular action is classified as a pistol or rifle? We are talking, primarily about Savage short action's (mod 10, 12 etc.) and Remington Mod. 600, XP-100 etc.)

Situation: A customer lay's a stripped Savage short action and an "in the white" Rem 600 action, on the counter and ask's if I can build him a varmint pistol and a hunting pistol using these two actions.

Given all the turmoil and movement in DOJ and BATFE, lately, I have no idea what the right (legal) answer is.

HELP

Thanks, Paul

[stangfish]

Removed

[Jamie]

^ Solid answer.

[red caddy 51]

OK, I'm really NOT trying to start a pissing contest...

Let me re phrase: A BATFE enforcement agent steps up to my bench, at the range, observes a custom stocked Specialty pistol lying in plane sight. He asks me for my NFA paperwork (AOW,SBR etc.) I tell him I don't have any.

Now what?


What chargeable offense has been committed?

Who has the burden of proof?


How does either one of us prove what is true?

Thanks, Paul

[JCalhoun]

The serial number is what the ATF will go by if they decide to pursue it. Not sure about the XP-100 but the Striker has a left bolt/right port arrangement and very distinctive trigger linkage and magazine box for the center grip stock. The action screw spacing is also different from the short action rifle receiver. They look different enough not to be confused.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

A "stripped" Savage short action is NOT a Striker. The "Striker" is a different animal. Same with the Remington Model 600. The Remington XP 100 was a "pistol" when it was born at the factory. You can install a longer barrel and make it into a rifle. That is and has been done MILLIONS of times. Got one!

According to the BATF information dated July 25,2011, if the OAL of the rig is 26" long and the barrel is at least 16" long, it's still a rifle, no matter what it looks like.
That's what I went/go by when I built my left hand Savage Model 12 repeater action into a rear grip pistol.
You need to look up the information for yourself and decide. I keep a copy of that information in my range bag, just in case the question ever comes up.
Folks have/will say "it applies to the TC Contender"? It's the "measurements" that count. I'll stick to the measurements. I've got it in writing!

A rifle with a 16" barrel doesn't turn it into a pistol. Anything shorter than 16" turns it into a SBR (short barreled rifle) and you end up dealing with the BATF.

[ragsflh]

thanks for info mikie

[red caddy 51]

Mikie,
I have been going by the same info as in your post. I have built several "pistols" all with 16 inch, and up barrels and 26 inch OAL, on various "rifle" actions/receivers, without any regard for NFA paperwork/standards/ restrictions, as I believed them to be legal as built. I have re barreled a few XP-100's without any regard for barrel length or OAL, other than what the customer specified. The customer that started the current dustup specifically asked for 12 inch barrels, on the provided actions, claiming they were both "pistol" actions.

The XP-100's are roll stamped as such, on the receiver. Near as I can tell, with the exception of the bolt handle shape, they are identical to the 600's. The Striker is a bit tougher to ID positively as a "left bolt" can be fitted into a "right port" action, then the only identifier becomes the screw spacing or possibly a factory letter. Did I miss anything ?

Just calling it a pistol does NOT make a difference in it's legality. They both will still go in the bound book as a "rifle". Transfer as a rifle and transport as a rifle. If I mount a 12 inch barrel, in the provided actions,as the customer requested, the result is a SBR.

Any weapon built on a proveable " pistol action" (striker or xp-100) can be legally built with any barrel length or over all length and not run afoul of NFA reg's or controls.

Agree or disagree?

Paul

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Paul:
First off, I'am not an expert on this subject. All I go by is what the BATF put in writing as far as the measurements. 16" or longer barrel and 26" OAL and it's still a rifle. (no matter what it looks like)
Like I mentioned, the XP 100 action was born at the factory as a pistol. No restrictions as far as barrel length. Longer or shorter, makes no difference.
A Savage "undesignated action" can be built into a pistol and is registered as such. If the "undesignated" action has never been registered, it can be built into either a rifle or pistol.
I have never had a Striker action in my hands. I went with the Model 12 "lefty" action to build my rear grip "pistol" with the 16"+ barrel length and the 26" OAL. My other rear grip pistol was built from a Model 12 right hand Savage action with the "proper" measurements so there would be no questions asked.
The only question I would have would be the barrel length fitted to the Remington 600 action. 16"+ and you're Good to Go. And make sure of the OAL, just in case.
I believe that all the Remington 600 actions were made into rifles? Watch your measurements and I see no problems. I believe you can build from an already registered rifle action as long as you stick with the barrel length and OAL.
Bottom line is, it looks as if you've pretty much got things covered. Enjoy your "rifle" builds, no matter what they look like or whatever you want to call them. We know the difference, Mike.

[red caddy 51]

Here's the DRT point: "A Savage "undesignated action" can be built into a pistol and is registered as such. If the "undesignated" action has never been registered, it can be built into either a rifle or pistol."



My state, and many others, does not have "registration" as such. "registration" is not provided for in federal law. (even NFA weapons are "taxed" not registered, Except full auto/select fire, and new ones cannot be added to the registry) What, exactly, is the exact point of registration?

When properly transferring a weapon, a FFL holder must record specific information about the firearm, serial number, type, action and caliber/gage. for purposes of this discussion, the most important is "type" rifle, pistol, shotgun/long gun. A bare reciever must be annotated as "action only" such as in the case of the TC Contender or 'frame only" in the case of some other handguns and new manf. recievers such as the Ruger replacements, and new Mauser clones Does the act of filling in the blank, by the FFL, forever designate the action? If the manufacturer can sell them as 'undesignated" why cant I ?

Even the AR crowd is getting in on the act, ordering "pistol" lowers and installing less than 16 inch barrels and fat "spring housings" that provide a shoulder point. A pistol is a pistol, is a pistol. Once a rifle, always a rifle...Ad nausem.

Please understand, I'm NOT picking on you, or any body else, I posed this question, several years ago, in writing, to my BATFE regional office, followed by several phone calls. to date, no official answer has been given. The bigger question is: I care what the BATFE decrees, Why, exactly? (no, I'm not turning this into a 2nd ammendment thing, just a common sense thing...)

Thanks,

Paul

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Paul:
My guess is the BATF doesn't "really know" exactly what some of the regs are either. And if someone asks a question about registrations or regulations, they probably have to dig into the books and find the answer? Too many rules to know all of them?
Common sense and Federal laws shouldn't be put in the same sentence!
In the case of an "undesignated action", if it was me and it came to registration, it would be registrated as a "pistol". That way, there would be no questions asked when it came to barrel length. Too many unanswered questions for "My Pay Grade".
Mike.

[red caddy 51]

Mikie,
Savage will not tell me how they decide what a "undesignated" action is shipped as, when it leaves the factory. The recieving FFL holder can book it as Undesignated, action only, rifle or pistol. (according to the local BATFE bean counter/compliance inspector, NOT a sworn agent. although, since the transfer to DOJ, she's not 100% sure if thats still her legal title/job description)

With a 01,02 and a 07, I can scratch build an action, an exact copy of a rem. 600, or a striker, for that matter. (A walk in the park, for a journeyman wheel spinner and a short hop for a good CNC programmer/opperator) roll stamp it XP-100-A, and sell it as a pistol, no problem. Of course, nobody wants to say how much an item must be modified, to consider it "manufactured".

For the duration, I'll just keep to the 16/26 rule and enjoy whatever it is I'm building... As you say, "we will know the difference"


OK, I've picked enough nit's for one thread, but I would be intrested to hear how other 'smiths , builders and small manufacturers deal with the "powers that be" on this question.

Crawling back under my rock,
Paul

[JCalhoun]

red,

The Striker will be smooth on the right side so the only bolt notch will be on the left side. Even if somebody filled the notch on the right side you would see discoloring of the steel. The bolt notch is a very sharp machine cut that would very difficult for an amateur to duplicate.

The rear of the receiver is flat on top (flat back old style action).

[JCalhoun]

Any way to post some pics. That would be very helpful.

[ShawneeB]

It depends on "what it was born as" I was an 07 class 2. When you build a gun, receiver is registered aka paid FET tax on either a handgun or rifle, 10 and 11% There are records by SN