Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures

[ellobo]

The balls in the thrust bearing rotate so there is no 5x the friction. Tell me how much testing was done with the original.357 case design before it was declared safe? And who did the testing, and how far away from the action was the tester? Was it done with a clamped down rifle and trigge pulled with a string? I havnt heard anything about any testing of that particular design but it is presumed safe by eveyone. There are test methods like the clamp and string that could be done with Supafly's design. After looking over how it is put together I visualy see no safety issues, but I dont think it could hurt to have proper tests run to see if it is safe and if it really does give better bolt lift, which is a really lousy Savage problem which I have currently on my 7x57 build along with a three screw trigger that when adjusted to its best is still marginal.
Those who are currently testing the thrust washer design should take all due precautions when using it untill it is proven safe. Dolomite my friend, you should have done all the testing yourself and over a long period of time before getting anyone else involved and then having them use safe measure like clamp and string.

El Lobo

[LeeH]

The balls in the thrust bearing rotate so there is no 5x the friction. Tell me how much testing was done with the original.357 case design before it was declared safe? And who did the testing, and how far away from the action was the tester? Was it done with a clamped down rifle and trigge pulled with a string? I havnt heard anything about any testing of that particular design but it is presumed safe by eveyone. There are test methods like the clamp and string that could be done with Supafly's design. After looking over how it is put together I visualy see no safety issues, but I dont think it could hurt to have proper tests run to see if it is safe and if it really does give better bolt lift, which is a really lousy Savage problem which I have currently on my 7x57 build along with a three screw trigger that when adjusted to its best is still marginal.
Those who are currently testing the thrust washer design should take all due precautions when using it untill it is proven safe. Dolomite my friend, you should have done all the testing yourself and over a long period of time before getting anyone else involved and then having them use safe measure like clamp and string.

El Lobo



I agree with you in theory, but seeing that the bolt lug's prevent nasty things from happening and they are fully engaged, I don't see a problem.
BUT...I could be wrong.

[PEI Rob]

It is impossible to rate this kit without comparing it to the 38/357 case kit. Both are designed to reduce friction between the BAS and the cocking piece sleeve and that is all they do. The friction between the 38/357 case kit single ball bearing and the BAS is EXTREMELY LOW. The friction is so low the bearing does not need to rotate. It is a very hard steel ball that remains smooth while it barely seats into the BAS. It might take about 1/10 of an inch pound to turn.

The two washer and 6 ball kit cannot possibly be any easier to rotate than the 38/357 case kit. Even if it was twice as easy, how would you ever tell?

The separate spacer to go between the BAS and the handle must be fabricated. It is just easier to shorten the BAS.

If a person wants to improve bolt lift further, study the cocking piece pin. The cocking piece pin rubs on the cocking piece, the sleeve, the bolt body and the action. It also rubs on the sear but that isn't what we are discussing here. A 1 piece dual roller cocking piece pin would be a big improvement.

[dolomite_supafly]

The biggest reason for the spacer is that I generally do not like to do things that are not reversable to firearms. I know that most Savages aren't collectors items but over the years I have seen people do some pretty nasty things done to what would be collector firearms. Because of this anything I do to any firearm I try not to make it permanent. Yeah, for most people it would be easier just to shorten the BAS but I, personanlly, do not like to do things like that. And if I do I make sure I am 100% positive sure it will work after the modification.

ellobo,
No one is involed in the testing of this idea. I just threw it up here for all to see what I did. I got hammered for asking peole to test a previous design before posting it so from now on I am not going to ask anyone to test anything for me. People can do waht they want with what I have posted but I am not going to be a party to it anymore.

As I said before everyone here is an adult and are quite capable of making your own judgements and taking their own precautions.

Dolomite

[usmc_mwroseberry]

The biggest reason for the spacer is that I generally do not like to do things that are not reversable to firearms. I know that most Savages aren't collectors items but over the years I have seen people do some pretty nasty things done to what would be collector firearms. Because of this anything I do to any firearm I try not to make it permanent. Yeah, for most people it would be easier just to shorten the BAS but I, personanlly, do not like to do things like that. And if I do I make sure I am 100% positive sure it will work after the modification.

ellobo,
No one is involed in the testing of this idea. I just threw it up here for all to see what I did. I got hammered for asking peole to test a previous design before posting it so from now on I am not going to ask anyone to test anything for me. People can do waht they want with what I have posted but I am not going to be a party to it anymore.

As I said before everyone here is an adult and are quite capable of making your own judgements and taking their own precautions.

Dolomite


Gentlemen the man is trying to help all of us. Instead of giving him crap and shooting it down if you don't like it just keep your mouth shut and move along. He is not hurting you in any way and those of us that would like to try this are very appreciative of his time and effort.

Thanks Dolomite,
Merritt
SGT USMC vet.

[pdog06]

Dolomite,
Does adding the spacer push the bolthandle back far enough to cause it to hit the stock or the cutout in the action when you ope/close the bolt? Just tryin to get a mental pic of it in action(so to speak). The other question I have is with the bolthandle hole being shaped so the fits perfectly(and flush) onto the end of the bolt, does the spacer move it back too far to fit as expected?

I am guessing that you're thinking that the 5 bearings will share the pressure instead of it being loaded on just 1 bearing. SO if the weight/pressure is evenly distributed it should be easier. Seems like a good theory, and definately one worth testing.

I think most of us understand your real reasoning behind doing this, and appreciate your willingness to try it. I do agree that the other kit seemed like it could be unsafe in some rifles, but this one seems safe enough to me. Basically very similar to a normal lift kit and just dont have to cut the bolt. I would like to see a finished pic of it with the washer installed though, and of course the numbers too.

[davemuzz]

I'm no Mech-Eng. (Thank you Lord) ;D just a regular guy that is happy to get up on the green side of the grass everyday.

However, when I look at the design of the 5 bearing gizmo, my concern is that on the harder kicker guns, how are the bearings going to hold up? Are they going to remain round or will they have any tendency to become out-of-round?

In addition, the plastic that they sit in....is there a possibility that this could crack? and could this crack go un-noticed to the point where it would work for a certain number of rounds, and then gall and bind up the bolt?

Hey, for deer hunting it's no big deal. For hog hunting when that big 'ol pig is comin right at ya, and your chambering that second round, it may make a difference.

Dave

[steveinwv]

The fact that it works with the new bolts is super. Simple math proves that the bearing kit + the BAS washer = the same pressure on the spring and the same amount of travel. This kit is no more dangerous than the original bolt design. I am a mechanical engineer, for what little it's worth, and it doesn't take a mechanical engineer to do the math.

The BAS washer by itself.................not good.

And then again dolomite admitted this quickly.

I'd still take one for my new FCP-K and gladly pay for it.

I still say nice work, even if you use it in an older gun in place of the .38spl kit.

[dolomite_supafly]

Dolomite,
Does adding the spacer push the bolthandle back far enough to cause it to hit the stock or the cutout in the action when you ope/close the bolt? Just tryin to get a mental pic of it in action(so to speak). The other question I have is with the bolthandle hole being shaped so the fits perfectly(and flush) onto the end of the bolt, does the spacer move it back too far to fit as expected?

I am guessing that you're thinking that the 5 bearings will share the pressure instead of it being loaded on just 1 bearing. SO if the weight/pressure is evenly distributed it should be easier. Seems like a good theory, and definately one worth testing.

I think most of us understand your real reasoning behind doing this, and appreciate your willingness to try it. I do agree that the other kit seemed like it could be unsafe in some rifles, but this one seems safe enough to me. Basically very similar to a normal lift kit and just dont have to cut the bolt. I would like to see a finished pic of it with the washer installed though, and of course the numbers too.



I'll try to get some pictures of the bolt installed in the gun when I can, I really need to take it easy today. But here are pictures of the washer installed and tighten on the bolt.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/boltpic3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/boltpic2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/boltpic1.jpg

On my rifle there are no ill effect of the additional .195". It clears the PDS/T stock I have. The spacer is the same diamter as the BAS so the diamter shouldn't be an issue either. The spacer doesn't change the way the bolt handle ataches to the bolt itself, the bolt handle is still in the same position as before.

As for the longevity of the setup I don't know. I can say that these are ball bearings so if the orginal 38 special ball bearing idea has held up without deforming them I can't see why this wouldn't but who knows, only time will tell. I can see the plastic piece being an issue down the road though because I am unsure how solvents willl affect it or even grease for that matter. To remove the plastic carrier as well as make a similar setup for the cocking indicator bolts something else probably needs to be done. What I was thinking was machine the bottom of the BAS and put a small groove for the bearings to ride in then use the same size groove in a plate that covers the cocking piece. Basically having two grooved surfaces for the bearings to ride in but leave enough clearance so the BAS and cocking sleeve do not touch each other. The pressure of the spring would hold them in place. I think this would work and help out those with the new cocking indicator bolts.

I am not in this to make money, never was. I am in it to help out Savages as well as myself for the reasons I have mentioned before.
I do not own a shop or anything other than the tools most of you on this board already have.

I appreciate everybody for not turning this thread into the shit storm the previous thread was. And yes I admit the previous thread had a version that had issues that could have been bad and that is why the 8 people who got the previous version had certified letters sent to them notifying them as well as a SASE for them to send the part back. That is where the letter Mr Furious posted came from, the request quit using the previous part and return it at no cost to them.

Dolomite

[dolomite_supafly]

If the powers that be ok it I'll post the info for the bearing.

They took it down when they posted the letter.

Dolomite

[cwop]

the smartest man i ever knew was a electrian with a 3rd grade education. he could figure out anything give him enough time. in the 30s he worked on construction and setting up of power plants. guess who the young engineers went to when they couldnt figure something out. yep leo the electrician. he did every thing from building houses to electronics. when he built a home, in the winter instead of setting around he would build a lot of the house in his garage.

leo knew about all 480 3ph electical stuff, wild legs in 3ph which i never did even understand. he handled his finances in the same way died a well off old goat. i miss him every day just a fine fine gentleman.

as i read dolomites theories and the man himself i find someone i admire greatly. we need these kind of folks to learn from. he can take hostile critizsim i know that.

good going dolomite

bob

[Dust_Remover]

Tag. Definately interested in trying this out. There are a lot of machine shops in my area, i'm sure I could find a guy to machine a BAS spacer for me, or even trim the BAS for me, I can always order another BAS and have it as a backup just in case I want to revert back to the stock form.

Anything that'll smooth up my bolt on my 10, it's got several thousand rounds through it now, and it's a lot better than it used to be, but i'd like for it to be super smooth.

Branden

[82boy]

Just my 2 cents, and a bit of constructive criticism.

What is accomplished in the 38 case with a bearing is that it has a smaller surface area. Not that the ball bearing has anything to do with friction, but that it places the turning force on a smaller point. You could accomplish the same thing buy making a spacer to fit in the cocking piece and place a pointed surface to contact the BAS. It functions in the same way as when someone places something on a pivot, and takes a steel rod and points it up. The best example I can think of is a wind flag. If you look at wind flags they usually take the contact point and point it up to reduces the surface area. Another example is a shooting rest the feet are pointed to make a smaller surface area, and allow them to turn, it also digs into the concrete do to them being harder, but for this discussion this is a mute point. Another flaw that people do is the drill a divot into the back action screw for the ball bearing to ride in, and they actually increased the surface area, and defeated the purpose.

I will say that the thrust bearing is a great way to go, (If fact you are somewhat close in design to what SSS has done to for the accu-stock guns. They have used their idea ever since they have come out.) but I see that there could be a flaw in your idea. The point to making a kit such as this is for the newer accu-stock gun with there rear cocking indicator to pass through. Maybe I am wrong but it looks like the hole in the bearing and the washers is too small for the cocking indicator to go through. The only question I have for the spacer is ,with it installed does the BAS partly cover the safety?

IMO you need one of the newer bolts with the cocking indicator to test your invention. Placing the kit you have in an older style non cocking indicator bolt is just reinventing the wheel, with a higher cost fix than that of the old tried and trued. The more ball bearings equate into more surface area, and increased bolt lift over the single bearing. It does still lower the bolt lift force, and it can be used on the newer guns.

Again not to flame you, or stir the pot, it is just constructive criticism, if I was looking to do gunsmith work, or invent new parts, I would first go out and spend some money into proper tools to test, and make the parts. To truly tell if your making a difference you need to find better testing methods than a fish scale. If you truly what to know what your accomplishing, you need to be scientific with your research. You need the parts you are building the fix for, and you need a good accurate repeatable test procedures. I would also advise you to contact MR. F before you did anything on this site with giving away of your products.

And to all the Neigh sayers, that states that the people are holding him back, I offer you this; due to this being presented on this forum, it places legal liability onto the staff, if they say nothing. The problem is not that he is inventing a new product, (we all greatly encourage that.) but it is the way that he has presented these without the proper testing.(this thread is better than the last but still in question) In today money hungry lawyer friendly world people will try to get money out of anyway they can, and if someone would have an accident that was caused with his product, they sure would try to come back on this site. The staff is only policing this up because of the liability issues, and dang it, no one what to see anyone get hurt.

[pdog06]

Dolomite, thanks for the pics of it. Forget about my questions about the clearance in the stock. I wasnt thinking straight and forgot the bolthandle will still be in its same positioning on the bolt, with the spacer behind it. SO the clearances should be fine, except for maybe the safety as Pat just mentioned.

Are you gonna compare a normal lift kit(single bearing 38 case type) to this one on different guns to see which has the most effect on bolt lift? Sure you are, and I am curious to read about your results.

Great info you mention Pat. Thanks for explaining some of the issues for those that dont realize it.

[dolomite_supafly]

Just my 2 cents, and a bit of constructive criticism.

What is accomplished in the 38 case with a bearing is that it has a smaller surface area. Not that the ball bearing has anything to do with friction, but that it places the turning force on a smaller point. You could accomplish the same thing buy making a spacer to fit in the cocking piece and place a pointed surface to contact the BAS. It functions in the same way as when someone places something on a pivot, and takes a steel rod and points it up. The best example I can think of is a wind flag. If you look at wind flags they usually take the contact point and point it up to reduces the surface area. Another example is a shooting rest the feet are pointed to make a smaller surface area, and allow them to turn, it also digs into the concrete do to them being harder, but for this discussion this is a mute point. Another flaw that people do is the drill a divot into the back action screw for the ball bearing to ride in, and they actually increased the surface area, and defeated the purpose.

I will say that the thrust bearing is a great way to go, (If fact you are somewhat close in design to what SSS has done to for the accu-stock guns. They have used their idea ever since they have come out.) but I see that there could be a flaw in your idea. The point to making a kit such as this is for the newer accu-stock gun with there rear cocking indicator to pass through. Maybe I am wrong but it looks like the hole in the bearing and the washers is too small for the cocking indicator to go through. The only question I have for the spacer is ,with it installed does the BAS partly cover the safety? The spacer does not cause the BAS to cover the safety on a Stevens 200 action and the safety is still working just fine depite the additional .185" added to the length of the BAS. You are correct in that the hole on this is in fact too small, the cocking indicators on new bolts are rounghly .245" and this bearing has only a .125" ID but LeeH is going to try to drill these out to .25". I would have tired but unfortunately I can't because of my health issues right at this moment. We will see how it works out for LeeH. The previous idea I had seemed like it would work with all actions until people brought up valid points and I admitted it, sent out emails, PM's and certified letters acknowledging this. This version WILL NOT work with cocking indicator bolts and I never said that it would in THIS thread. I did in the previous thread but that one is over and done with as far as I am concerned and this is a whole new thread about something different. Either way, live and learn, nothing ventured nothing gained, yada, yada, yada.

IMO you need one of the newer bolts with the cocking indicator to test your invention. Placing the kit you have in an older style non cocking indicator bolt is just reinventing the wheel, with a higher cost fix than that of the old tried and trued. The more ball bearings equate into more surface area, and increased bolt lift over the single bearing. It does still lower the bolt lift force, and it can be used on the newer guns. Personally, I disagree with this because the bearing in the 38 special kit drags while the bearing here should in fact roll.

Again not to flame you, or stir the pot, it is just constructive criticism, if I was looking to do gunsmith work I'm not, or invent new parts not planning to do this either, I would first go out and spend some money into proper tools to test, and make the parts. To truly tell if your making a difference you need to find better testing methods than a fish scale Agreed and I am not going to make excuses as to why. If you truly what to know what your accomplishing, you need to be scientific with your research. You need the parts you are building the fix for, and you need a good accurate repeatable test procedures Again I totally agree. I would also advise you to contact MR. F before you did anything on this site with giving away of your products. I have previously given stuff away on this site without issue but evidentally I was trying to "just skirts some of the rules on this website" by offering something for free according to a moderator in the other thread. Because of this I am just not going to give anything away, period end of story. This is the reason I posted where the bearing could be bought so they could if they choose. Unfortunately Mr Furious felt the need to delete it. Not trying to act like I am stomping my feet in a temper tantrum or anything like that but I will not get accused of "just skirts some of the rules on this website" again. That wasn't my intent in the begining and now this is the best way to keep from being accused of it.

And to all the Neigh sayers, that states that the people are holding him back, I do not believe you were holding me back in any way, I was able to get valuable information before the previous thread took on a whole new vibe with the name calling I offer you this; due to this being presented on this forum, it places legal liability onto the staff, if they say nothing. The problem is not that he is inventing a new product, (we all greatly encourage that.) but it is the way that he has presented these without the proper testing.(this thread is better than the last but still in question)I am just presenting things for people to look over, not advocating anything just presenting ideas In today money hungry lawyer friendly world people will try to get money out of anyway they can, and if someone would have an accident that was caused with his product, they sure would try to come back on this site. The staff is only policing this up because of the liability issues, and dang it, no one what to see anyone get hurt. I absolutely agree, what we do not need is another pro gun media taken away for any reason. Even if you do not agree with those here at least there is a "here" because one day there may not be. And ask any of the testers, including Greg, if safety was not my concern.


You have always been a corgile, profeesional person when dealing with me and I really appreciate it. This is the kind of discussin we need to move things forward and not dwell on the past.

Dolomite

[pdog06]

I am starting to feel the "love" again in this thread.... Thats a good thing ;)

I think what the mods were meaning is that if you were giving away a proven safe and working product there would not have been a problem. It would be no different than the free giveaway of the piano wire for the 3screw triggers, or the stuff cowboyarcher gives away at times. They are all being done for different reasons but no rules were broken that I can find written. The mods main issue that made this different was the safety factor, and the fact that it was given out for others to test instead of given out as an already tested product. Some people have different ways of expressing what they mean, and some are more harsh than others, but I think they all meant the same basic thing as a whole, and Pat pretty much eluded to it in his last paragraph. Hopefully that can be forgotten and forgiven so we can concentrate on your new kit, which is a safe kit from what can be seen.

I really hope this thing works for you, and hopefully then maybe a write-up on it can be put in the articles section for everone to read in the future.

[82boy]

I am starting to feel the "love" again in this thread.... Thats a good thing ;)

I think what the mods were meaning is that if you were giving away a proven safe and working product there would not have been a problem. It would be no different than the free giveaway of the piano wire for the 3screw triggers, or the stuff cowboyarcher gives away at times. They are all being done for different reasons but no rules were broken that I can find written. The mods main issue that made this different was the safety factor, and the fact that it was given out for others to test instead of given out as an already tested product. Some people have different ways of expressing what they mean, and some are more harsh than others, but I think they all meant the same basic thing as a whole, and Pat pretty much eluded to it in his last paragraph. Hopefully that can be forgotten and forgiven so we can concentrate on your new kit, which is a safe kit from what can be seen.

I really hope this thing works for you, and hopefully then maybe a write-up on it can be put in the articles section for everone to read in the future.


I could not have saud it better, you hit the nail on the head, big time! Yes, we would love to see a write up,on what you discover.

[LeeH]

I have two of the new actions and I am ordering the bearings as we speak.
The only problem as I see it, is reaming/drilling the center holes to clear the
cocking indicator which is a extension of the firing pin.
No problem doing that on this end.

FINALLY WE HAVE A CHOICE!!!!!!


Way to go Dolomite

[P057]

8)

[wild willy]

Dolomite I would be interested in buying two of the spacers and thanks for all the effort you have put into this ::)