Group size vs. rifle makeup

[Smokey262]

There used to be a post here that spoke about what real world results were obtainable based upon the rilfle and method of shooting it. I think it was in response to someone saying their Savage in factory as shipped condition was capable of shooting in the .2's consistently with favorite handloads

Several knowledgable and trustworthy members came back and declared BS, then gave a summary of what is indeed probable with a factory barrel vs. aftermarket barrel, factory trigger vs. aftermarket competition trigger, factory stock vs. aftermarket BR style stock, etc.

If I recall correctly the idea was that without the benefit of these best in class accessories that the best consistent probable group size was going to be in the .4-.7 range

Any body remember this post?

Where am I going with this? I work up loads just like all of you but from time to time I just want to say its as good as its going to get, just load up a couple hundred of them and be done with it, because the rifle in its current state is not going to get any better.

I know, I know, we all try for perfection, but when is it not probable without changing some part of the rifle?

[Budweiser360]

Well, that really depends on the rifle in the first place. Some factory shoot well right out of the box, and then the next one off the line may shoot 8 feet to the right at 100 yards (yeah it's possible, ask me how I know :( )

You have to be reasonable, really, the lowest that can honestly be had with a factory tube is 1/2MOA regularly. All these guys saying there rifle shoots 1/4MOA all day long is full of "it". If it does, get out, shoot some matches and win some prizes. Some may agree, some may not, I'm not overly concerned......But that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[82boy]

I remember the thread, there was a guy that had a 308 that he claimed that it would shoot 5 shot groups in the low.1's or low .2's, and never shot worse than that. (I think he was selling the gun.) The problem is, yes some of these rifle will shoot small groups, but they overall they average a much higher number. Just because the rifle will shoot one freak group in the .2 area doesn't make it a .2 shooting rifle.

My experience is that most people can take a factory Savage rifle and shoot groups in the .5 to .6 area, and I have had a few that would shoot down in the mid to high .3 area. (And most times average in the .4 to .5 area, but maybe one or two groups out of 5 will be in the .3's) To get past the .3 hump, and to shoot averages in the .3's or lower it takes a bit of work.

[sharpshooter]

I remember the post, and one of the guys postings claimed his gun would would shoot in the .2's consistently, but he couldn't back it up with targets. I offered the challenge of putting 5- 5 shot groups on one target with none over .300" and nobody could take me up on it. It's alot harder than it looks. I have an LRPV in .223 that I have shot a lot of groups in the .2's in competition ,but the aggs are always in the .3's and .4's, it only takes one big one to screw up an agg.
On a side note: there are slot of guns that will shoot that consistant, but other factors come into play. The shooter is one...even the best shooter will be affected by conditions. The technique is another. Have you ever heard the phase
"the fifth shot giggle"? This is where you have put 4 shots in one hole and get really excited and over confident about it, anticipating one of the best groups you've ever shot, then fate kicks your butt and makes the fifth shot a flyer.
I've had experience with a few guns that were very accurate, but hard to shoot. Like driving a very fast race car with an uncomfortable seat, the power is there but you can't get all the performance out because the seat limits your abilities.

I had the privilege of testing one of the new F/TR rifles when the first came out.
Although I never shoot a .308 much, I was impressed with the accuracy, but the rifle was hard to shoot because of the stock configuration. With a 30" barrel, the balance was too far forward, and the angle of the toe was such that when it recoiled the muzzle lifted and the longer barrel time of the bullet caused a lot of verticle if the hold was not very consistant. I realized that this rifle was not intended to be shot off bags, but I changed the stock just to see what would happen. I used a long range bench rest stock that was more bag freindly and quickly realized this was the "more comfortable seat" that I needed to make this rifle easier to shoot to it's potential.
As your experience expands, you will find that it is not just one or two things that make a rifle shoot as good as the shooter, but rather a complete system.

[pa hog]

I don't loose alot of time reloading, but I do take my time and my loads are uniform and as precise as I'm capable of with my equipment, Most of my factory Savage's usually shoot in the half inch range give or take and sometimes I'll get a group in the .1's-.3's but it's more luck than not. A Pre-fit barrel seems to get me a little better results with the same time invested in reloading, but in the same time easier cleaning. My full custom guns do really well with basic handloads and thats all I expect.

"The Fifth Shot Giggle" Yes Sir guilty of that more than once!!

[Balljoint]

My Savage 308 F/TR shot 5 shot groups at .475 out of the box with untested hand loads this was at the 2008 Savage Shootout.