Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?

[davemuzz]

"90% of your horsepower for 10% of your money...10% of your horsepower for 90% of your money."

Also, 5 5-shot groups doesn't really tell us much about the *rifle's* capability. Sure you've got to have an accurate stick, but you've got to be a VERY skilled shooter too and the human is probably always the weakest link in the system, Savage or not.


That's true. It usually comes down to the nut behind the trigger!!! However, I am willing to post a 5 shot 5 round group. But that simply cannot be done on my part until the spring. Right now it's hunting season, and believe me, I just have too many "plates spinning" to attempt to get to the range with 25 rounds of ammo and shoot 'em at an orang dot.

Dave

[Shooter970]

I have a 110e action I just put a shilen select match 25-06AI barrel on dropped it in a houge full bed stock and started fire forming brass and I'm getting under 1/4 Moa every range trip. My best has been .098 it averaged .210 for 5 5 shot groups. I think it is as much the shooter,ammo quality,and just getting a really good barrel. I have a $3000 rifle that can't shoot with my savage. Guess which one I'm going to sell.

[sharpshooter]

Please post your targets.

[LoneWolf]

Well, with my current setup I am not quite capable. I am sure the rifle is, but I am not that capable.

.77 group forgot to charge the real camera and my phone couldn't focus on the micrometer, but it stated .77.

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a510/PJ0527/IMAG0406_zps890f5dd4.jpg?t=1383948216

All Groups today at 100.

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a510/PJ0527/291b5617-2d34-4afd-9533-fdac8cb9f7a1_zpsdbd7c5eb.jpg?t=1383948438

got a few things to work on though. I learned more about my rig for sure.

[Lessdrop]

Mine shoots as good as I can shoot it which is a lot better sometimes than others. I have shot many tiny groups with reloads and ,an always ,ount on sub moa even with factory ammo. It's a bone stock lrh in 6.5 creedmoor with a $300. Nikon scope and my smallest 3shot group was .087 at 100 yds and it commonly shoots 1 hole 5 sbot grpz at 200 (5/8" and less" my thought is a custom made sav. Done right will have no problem at all shooting as good as the nut behind the bolt can drive it. (by the way I consider myself a beginner as far as long range target goes.) Have shot and hunted all my life, but just started learning to shoot good a few years back. It sure is fun to shoot next to folks with $5000 or more rifles with a stock savage.
Build with confidence and good luck,
Lessdrop

[DanSavage]

I know these are all 3 shot and one 4 shot but I'm not using Berger bullets or any special reloading technique's, the only special thing I do is weigh cases and bullets.

Note that this target was shot 5 different days over a month's time and the scope was adjusted for 2 different local match's that I shoot in. This test is mainly used to test the scope zero and cold bore shot.

Also days 1-3 were using a 70$ Centerpoint scope days 4 and 5 with new Nightforce. cheap ER Shaw barrel.
I will attempt this challenge with my new Shilen Select Match .308 barrel that will be here next week. I will also have to move to Berger bullets and get a more precise scale.

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a542/243Wilson/F-Class097_zpsd5004329.jpg (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/243Wilson/media/F-Class097_zpsd5004329.jpg.html)

[bsekf]

It's de ja vu. We went through this last year. One hole rifles that have had nothing done to them,IMHO, are a figment of someones imagination. We have a competition every year, it's tomorrow, Sunday Nov. 10. Three shots, in succession, off the bench at 200 yards, 10 ring is one inch. There may be one group under an inch. Most will be 4-5 inches. Rifles have to under 12 lbs and under 24x scopes. A couple of the guys shoot regularly at Ridgeway, PA. They are good shooters with good equipment. I have been lucky enough to win the last 2 years with a stubbed Hart barrel on a tuned Encore action in 7-08 AI rimmed. This year I will be shooting a tuned Savage (thanks Fred), custom barreled 6.5x47. Guys that have been running their mouths usually just go to the car and go home.....and we never see them again. We shoot across a pond...so no wind flags. My Encore rig will shoot 2's and 3's, once in a while. I am thrilled to death when I can put 10 shots in 1.5 inches at 200 yds. That's a 7.5. The Savage does about as well.

[Lessdrop]

Jeez, i was just trying to encourage someone tÿo build and wanted t o share some of my experiences with my new svage. Been tryi
trying to post a pic of target to show its not my imagination. No luck as all i have is a phone to connect here. Since my erlier trips i have found the sweet spot for berger 130 vlds to be 2.835- about .025 to. 030 off lands. Have tried varget, r15, r17, r19, h4350, imr4350 and can't get a bad group from any. Used berger 130, 140 vld, berger 120, hornady 95 and 120 vmax. Only bullet that my rifle does not like is horn. 123's. Am very pleased with this rifle and the good advise from my friends at the range, who shoot competivly and some customers of mine who were glad to help.

Thought mabey i could get some advise here, instead of flames. If you want to call me one who runs at mouth and goes to car, bring your best guna and you money to wi. And well see who swallows the talk.
I also assembled( not built) many gas guns foself and friends/customers that shoot quite well and this was unusual for me to go with a bolt, and would like to see which brand of barrels diff. Shooters are using for gas gun creedmoor projects, rra have been very good barrels for me and also the 18" dan def. Brls. Some have even been quite supriseingly good but better not mention that and piss someone who has nothing better to do than shoot down on others off.

Good shooting anyways,
lessdrop

[FW Conch]

Lessdrop, you and your questions and comments are very welcome. The "heartbrake" of "senility" is a sad state of affairs, indeed :-(
Stay with it .... You'll get those pictures posted! Good luck-Good Shooting & Thanks!........ Jim ;-)

[DanSavage]

I believe you Lessdrop, it's good to have you here at Savage Shooters, I've seen a couple Savages's that are 1/4 guns. One of them however has a Bartlien 6BR 7.7 twist that has a massive fat chamber because of the elliminated barrel nut (shouldered barrel) on a Savage Target action and HS precision stock. The guy is an older highly experienced shooter and along with good reloading he can achieve dime size ten shot groups at 250 yard during a match. I know of 2 other 6 brs that are 1/4, one with a Brux and one with a Shilen select match. Im not trying to push the 6 BR because I don't have one yet but I will.LOL

[bsekf]

Please don't misunderstand. I am all for hearing everybody's experiences and how they did it. However do not try to BS me or yourself.

By the way, I did not win today, got beat by a kid (50 +) and a nearly stock Rem 700 in 243. Still say the wind, rain. sleet. snow and, did I say, wind, blew his group together. He won with a 2 inch group at 200 yards.

As Fred said, consistent 1/4 minute rifles and shooters are few and far between.

[foxx]

So, bsekf, if I got it right, the winner shot 1 moa at 200 yds?

[Lessdrop]

I too am a fan of 6br and other 6's. Used a friends br at a winter match in pinceton, mn for the 500 yd portion of the shoot. It was s ary accurate and a blast to shoot, but he had a schmidt and bender mounted on is rifle, and now anything ived used looks like junk. Never should have looked thru it or found turned the turret. I'm in serious Trouble now. Gotta save nickles, dimes, aluminum cans or whatever it takes to pinch money till some good glass comes my way. Dang!

[sharpshooter]

Please don't misunderstand. I am all for hearing everybody's experiences and how they did it. However do not try to BS me or yourself.

By the way, I did not win today, got beat by a kid (50 +) and a nearly stock Rem 700 in 243. Still say the wind, rain. sleet. snow and, did I say, wind, blew his group together. He won with a 2 inch group at 200 yards.

As Fred said, consistent 1/4 minute rifles and shooters are few and far between.

Finally, someone in touch with reality!

[Lessdrop]

I learned bs does not work about 53 years ago when i told my mom it was my brother that dirtied my diapers. Just too confusing to make up two more lies to cover each one before. That is unless it's something important like " no officer, i only had one can of beer". Bsing about group size is like cheating at golf when you play alone. Nothing to gain. So uless i am selling you a happy marrige with
My virgin sister, or telling you that 19 yr old chicks think i'm hot, no b.s. here.
I call truce. Peace. Merry Christmas. Happy new year.

[bsekf]

Foxx, yes he shot MOA with a rifle that I have seen shoot < .5 MOA. Just not yesterday. Please do understand, these were not BR rifles, but most are capable of 1/2 MOA or less. I shot a 5 shot < .5 MOA groups with both my rifles on Saturday and yesterday I shot 2 MOA groups. Consistency is the Tur* in the punch bowl. My spotter said I caught a 30mph wind change just as I shot, plus I called an inch .....it was 4 inches out. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Bill

[pdog06]

the question should be, Can you, as the shooter, shoot a 1/4moa aggregate with a certain rifle?

I believe that a Savage(with aftermarket barrel, proper bedding, etc) is surely capable of 1/4moa groups consistantly. However, it is all of the other variables that come into play that make that feat so rare(shooter, wind, reloading skills, parallax, shooting distance, etc).

Im sure all of us(or atleast most) have shot groups now and then of under 1/4moa, maybe even consistantly for a few range trips or so, but to average over a long period of time is extremely hard.

I am not ashamed to say that I know I cannot do it. I just do not shoot enough(what is enough anyway...LOL). I am 100% sure my 6br is capable, but I am not. I have shot some very small groups with it and have rarely shot any bad groups with it. I would guess that my agg should be around the mid to high .3 - low .4 moa area, as that is where the majority of my groups end up due to my own shooting errors(I dont shoot comp so i dont keep record of it. just going on memory). But to say it is the guns fault it isnt shooting under 1/4moa isnt fair. The only thing that I have proven is how consistant I am(or am not) as the shooter with that particular setup.

So my answer to the OP is, YES, I believe that a Savage rifle is capable.

[82boy]

Lets take a closer look at this question all together. The OP asked "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" When talking constantly this means every time the trigger is pulled that 9 time out of 10 the gun will put the shots in a 1/4 MOA hole. I would argue that not even the best Benchrest gun is able of doing this, even with the most experienced shooter. There is many things that affect shooting, such as Mirage, Wind, light, and many other conditions.

Don't believe me go through Benchrest match reports, and look at the aggregates shot. Yes, there is days where there will be small groups shot, but look at the overall picture. I will use for an example the last registered match I shot in. When we shot the NBRSA Eastern Finally, Greg Wally won with a over all .2512 2 gun Aggregate. This is just slightly over a 1/4 MOA. Hall of Fame member Jack Neary finished 2nd with a .2521 2 gun agg. And Ted Heindeselman (One of the best shooters I know.) finished 3rd with a .2534 2 gun agg. On Saturday we had very good conditions, many called it a "trigger pull contest," There was light rain, and very little to no wind. The flags sat limp most of the morning. This was a 100 yard match, with 5 shots shot at each record target. The best agg was a .1682 by Steve Theye, He shot very well, but when it came down to 4 match's his total aggregate was .2661. Back to the first 100 yard match the top 6 all shot under 1/4 MOA, Now from 7th to 25 all shot over a 1/4 MOA. Now if you take all of the shooters that shoot in this match with these good conditions, there total group aggregate come out to an average of .2885, well over a 1/4 MOA. Now out of this group, these was all experienced shooters shooting the best equipment money has to offer. I am not trying to cut anyone down, but to say that any rifle will shoot 1/4 MOA an given day all day long, is a bit far fetched.

Now going back to the original question: "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" The answer is no, no gun can. To answer the part of your question about is a Savage limited by its action, the answer is no. A Savage action will hang with a Full custom action and be ever bit as competitive. In the end the action is only an ignition source, where true accuracy is at is in the barrel and bullets. As long as the action is operating in the right capacity, having proper firing pin travel, with the correct weight of spring to ensure proper ignition, they are all equal. Now there is some features that will help a shooter do better such as port configuration, trigger weight, bolt throw length, ETC, but they are only because they ensure confidence into the shooter, and they fell comfortable. There is a big mental aspect to this game.

[bsekf]

Well put pdog.

Keep the information coming, it's the only way we can improve.

Bill

[kevin1]

Lets take a closer look at this question all together. The OP asked "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" When talking constantly this means every time the trigger is pulled that 9 time out of 10 the gun will put the shots in a 1/4 MOA hole. I would argue that not even the best Benchrest gun is able of doing this, even with the most experienced shooter. There is many things that affect shooting, such as Mirage, Wind, light, and many other conditions.

Don't believe me go through Benchrest match reports, and look at the aggregates shot. Yes, there is days where there will be small groups shot, but look at the overall picture. I will use for an example the last registered match I shot in. When we shot the NBRSA Eastern Finally, Greg Wally won with a over all .2512 2 gun Aggregate. This is just slightly over a 1/4 MOA. Hall of Fame member Jack Neary finished 2nd with a .2521 2 gun agg. And Ted Heindeselman (One of the best shooters I know.) finished 3rd with a .2534 2 gun agg. On Saturday we had very good conditions, many called it a "trigger pull contest," There was light rain, and very little to no wind. The flags sat limp most of the morning. This was a 100 yard match, with 5 shots shot at each record target. The best agg was a .1682 by Steve Theye, He shot very well, but when it came down to 4 match's his total aggregate was .2661. Back to the first 100 yard match the top 6 all shot under 1/4 MOA, Now from 7th to 25 all shot over a 1/4 MOA. Now if you take all of the shooters that shoot in this match with these good conditions, there total group aggregate come out to an average of .2885, well over a 1/4 MOA. Now out of this group, these was all experienced shooters shooting the best equipment money has to offer. I am not trying to cut anyone down, but to say that any rifle will shoot 1/4 MOA an given day all day long, is a bit far fetched.

Now going back to the original question: "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" The answer is no, no gun can. To answer the part of your question about is a Savage limited by its action, the answer is no. A Savage action will hang with a Full custom action and be ever bit as competitive. In the end the action is only an ignition source, where true accuracy is at is in the barrel and bullets. As long as the action is operating in the right capacity, having proper firing pin travel, with the correct weight of spring to ensure proper ignition, they are all equal. Now there is some features that will help a shooter do better such as port configuration, trigger weight, bolt throw length, ETC, but they are only because they ensure confidence into the shooter, and they fell comfortable. There is a big mental aspect to this game.


Thank you for focusing the debate on the original topic.

But I’ll have to disagree with your conclusions.

First, you can eliminate the variables you mentioned (Mirage, Wind, light) by shooting in a 100 yard rifle tunnel.

Second, there are manufacturers that build rifles with a guaranteed 0.25 MOA accuracy, and here’s an example:
“All of our M24E2 Rifles are guaranteed to produce sub 0.25 MOA Accuracy”
http://www.superiortactical.com/customrifles/56-2013-m24e2.html