Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?

[J.Baker]

I have to agree with Fred on this one. Shooting five 5-shot record groups back-to-back that agg. 0.25" or less is a difficult task for anyone with any equipment no matter how much it cost - especially in a competition environment where it counts. Even I can shoot the occasional sub 1/4 MOA group, but to do it regularly - much less back to back five times in a row - that's not likely to happen anytime soon with me at the trigger.

Pleasure shooting when the pressure isn't on and you can cherry pick your conditions with no time restraints wouldn't count in my opinion. The groups would almost have to be shot in registered competition as that's what would validate them as legit (to the rest of us) for group size, range and that they all came from the same gun on the same day.

And frankly I think this whole thread is kind of a farce in the first place. You can't magically take the shooter, the ammunition, or the conditions out of the equation so this whole discussion is mute and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. We might as well be talking about leprechauns and unicorns for all the difference it would make.

[davemuzz]

Funny you should mention leprechauns and unicorns…because tomorrow that season happens to start!! There is a two limit per man on the little green guys…..but unlimited on the one-horn critters. And…no cheating via shooting your neighbors bull and cutting of one horn and "crying" I thought it was…..I though it was!!! Seen that one to many times. (Used it myself for a freezer of beef too!!!)

Dave

PS, leprechauns are really tough and not all that tasty. I usually just have 'em ground up and make jerky out of 'em.

[ABE_EOD]

I have a 12 BVSS that I have shot a .25 moawith hand loads. For the money I would put a dollar for dollar savage against any other. But it does take a shooter to get those groups. This is my opinion on the subject.

[Maztech89]

Nor Cal Mikie, there is 2 bad things that can happen trying for a sub .25" agg. First is run out of money trying everything you can think of from barrels to dies to wind flags. There is a whole lot to blame the big groups on other than "I" or "me" and that's a hard pill to swallow. This leads me to number 2. You can burn yourself out of the shooting and loading game with the constant disappointment and by making our fun hobby seem like work. Even if you do it once or five times, you will then want to do it more and more and it just isn't going to happen every day, not even for Tony Boyer.

Dave, I hope you can do it, would love to see a local guy putting up some good targets. Quick question, what do you consider acceptable SD for your loads. My last batch for 22-250 was doing 5 shot strings in the 9.2-11.4 numbers. By elbow feel my 6 time loaded Lapua brass isn't allowing the Matchkings to seat with same pressure. I ordered another batch an hour ago to start fresh again. Myself I'm happy with any SD below 20 for my hunting rifles. They will all do sub quarter minute, but I can't tell you when they or I will as I leave plenty to be desired in the skill department. I'm a 1/2-3/4 minute shooter with my moments of brilliance.

Fred, as I'm sure you are a man of your word what are the rules to ensure you aren't getting "took" on your bet. I know this is a forum of mostly stand up honest guys, but there is always that one.... Will it be like a yardage club for Varmint Hunters Club where another member must witness the sub 1/4" agg, notary stamp with 2 signatures on target or what?

-MAZ-

[foxx]

Maztech89, You sound like someone with valuable experience in shooting sports. #2 was what happened to me in archery. It's a shame, really, cuz I used to love it.

If I dare play Fred's attorney here... He offered a bet that it hadn't already been done by any of us. It looks like he would have won had we made that bet. :)

As I see it, he's off the hook already.

On the other hand, he might put -up a new gentleman's wager that none of us can do it still. If so, I'd sure like to watch it. Minimally, I'd like people to honestly report that they intend to try on a specific date and time before they make the claim next week that they just tried it, and did it. But each of us should be considered fore-warned... , b/c of the reasons you pointed out so eloquently above.
This is supposed to be fun. Competitive shooting is not for everyone, even if they are very skilled shooters.

[jonbearman]

I have several savage's with good to really good barrels.My favorite's in this order:
savage pta/5/35 Smc
savage .260 rem
savage .308
stevens 22-250 AI
stevens .223
savage 7-08
Come to think of it they all shoot real good but the top two really shine.

[davemuzz]

Dave, I hope you can do it, would love to see a local guy putting up some good targets. Quick question, what do you consider acceptable SD for your loads. My last batch for 22-250 was doing 5 shot strings in the 9.2-11.4 numbers. By elbow feel my 6 time loaded Lapua brass isn't allowing the Matchkings to seat with same pressure. I ordered another batch an hour ago to start fresh again. Myself I'm happy with any SD below 20 for my hunting rifles. They will all do sub quarter minute, but I can't tell you when they or I will as I leave plenty to be desired in the skill department. I'm a 1/2-3/4 minute shooter with my moments of brilliance.


I just looked at my excel spread sheet sheet and for my 140gr. 6.5's my SD's were 5 to 3. I don't believe I can get any better with any load. OTOH, shooting 123gr. Noslers I get 11 to 9. Getting rid of the brass neck bulge that will develop eventually in the brass is a key to obtaining consistency with brass shot more than 3 times. Several ways to do this, and my preferred method is to use an inside neck reamer followed by an outside neck clean up. Using comp. neck bushing dies and comp seating dies gives the most consistent bullet concentricity.

OTOH, for my .223 I think I could reload those with a rock and a C-clamp. And my Savage carbine would still give me one-hole groups at 100 yards. Honestly though, I had a T\C carbine that I sold and found that once I had the bullet\powder combo that the gun liked, I loaded the OAL to the SAMI spec and one hole groups were right there. That's what I really like about the .223. It's cheap, and easy to load for. (Kind of like me!!)

FWIW

Dave

[BoilerUP]

"90% of your horsepower for 10% of your money...10% of your horsepower for 90% of your money."

Also, 5 5-shot groups doesn't really tell us much about the *rifle's* capability. Sure you've got to have an accurate stick, but you've got to be a VERY skilled shooter too and the human is probably always the weakest link in the system, Savage or not.

[LoneWolf]

That's why bench rest shooters started building Rail gun style rigs. Too much relies on the shooter to be able to do it consistently 5 times in a row.

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[Nor Cal Mikie]

IMHO, the best thing to do is shoot five 5 shot groups and see what you can do. From what Jim (Mr. Furious) said, when you post the results, he probably wouldn't believe you anyway if it wasn't in a registered match?? If you can achieve good groups, good for you. If your groups arn't that good? At least you tried.
I'll shoot the groups and see how good (or bad) I can do. The results will be for my own satisfaction and I won't care if anybody believes me or not. No excuses other than "I didn't do as well as I thought I could do".

[LoneWolf]

IMHO, the best thing to do is shoot five 5 shot groups and see what you can do. From what Jim (Mr. Furious) said, when you post the results, he probably wouldn't believe you anyway if it wasn't in a registered match?? If you can achieve good groups, good for you. If your groups arn't that good? At least you tried.
I'll shoot the groups and see how good (or bad) I can do. The results will be for my own satisfaction and I won't care if anybody believes me or not. No excuses other than "I didn't do as well as I thought I could do".

Well I'm going to the range today anyway! I'll see what I can do.

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[BillPa]

By elbow feel my 6 time loaded Lapua brass isn't allowing the Matchkings to seat with same pressure.
-MAZ-

It sounds as though your brass needs re-annealed, its work hardened from loading-firing cycles. Brass can be miserable stuff, the harder it gets the more it resists changing shape. Its the main reason for split necks, they generally take the most beating firing and resizing.

When or how often to anneal? It depends on the brass and how much its worked. I have a batch of R-P 280 brass that needs annealed after two cycles otherwise I run the risk ripping the press off the bench pulling the expander back through the neck. After annealing the expander pulls through and bullets seat smoothly with only moderate resistance.

A bushing or a Lee collet die can reduce the amount a neck is worked, but it depends how much they reduce the neck OD after being expanded to the chamber after firing.

Lubing the inside of the necks isn't the answer, it doesn't fix the problem, it masks it kind of like the old '50s- '60s trick putting sawdust in a manual transmission with bad bearings to quiet it down!:p

Bill

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Lone Wolf:
Be sure to report back with your range results, no matter how good or bad. I won't question your results and I'll believe whatever you say!!

[foxx]

Lone Wolf:
Be sure to report back with your range results, no matter how good or bad. I won't question your results and I'll believe whatever you say!!

That's a better way to say what I meant, as well. :)

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Some folks have been known to "put a little hair" of target results but in the long run, you're only fooling yourself!
Be REAL interesting to see what we can actually do.

[LoneWolf]

That's a better way to say what I meant, as well. :)

I'm using the free targets from the midway USA site. They have a pdf at the bottom of the page. With 4 targets per page.

Shooting position will be the prone with bipod and rear rest. Also built a platform to make front loading the pod easier at the range I go to. There is an unlevel gap between the end of the concrete and the firing line. So I built this box as a shooting platform:

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a510/PJ0527/Messenger_5804412550786430217_13838797929853642_zp s8e984491.jpg

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[Rifleshooter308]

9 times out of 10 it will be the shooter and the ammo making the difference. There are plenty of accurate rifles out there and also plenty of crap factory ammo and bad shooters. I love seeing all these 3 shot groups posted on the net. A 3 shot group is not an indicator of anything as they are still pretty much cold bore shots. Pump 20 through your rifle then shoot a 5 shot group. I like 10 shot strings with cooling between strings. This is a good indicator of how accurate the rifle, ammo and shooter. Also 100 yards is a paltry distance for these rifles. 100 yards is 22LR distance for a challenge. Frankly it's boring for any precision rifle and only good for load development. 300 yards is a bare minimum for accuracy and 500-1000 is where the rubber meets the road.

I spent hours and lots of $$$ putting together my Model 12 22-250 for distance. XLR chasis, McGowen barrel, NSS lug/nut, trigger work, nice optic, etc. I spent more time on load development than any other caliber working up the 80g A-max. The rifle made little clover leafs at 100 yards with my 15 year old son shooting it. The test came at the long range. First shot at 600 yards was center of mass on an ISPC steel target. Next five were within inches of the first. At 1000 had 5 within 5" with a variable wind of 5-10mph. It took 3 shots for me to hit the 3" gopher target at 1030 but I hit it. Am I a world class shooter....hell no! Is the rifle accurate...hell yes! But in reality it is the ammunition that makes the rifle.

[foxx]

I'm using the free targets from the midway USA site. They have a pdf at the bottom of the page. With 4 targets per page.

Shooting position will be the prone with bipod and rear rest. Also built a platform to make front loading the pod easier at the range I go to. There is an unlevel gap between the end of the concrete and the firing line. So I built this box as a shooting platform:

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a510/PJ0527/Messenger_5804412550786430217_13838797929853642_zp s8e984491.jpg

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Uh oh. He's hooked! :)

[GaCop]

It takes an accurate rifle to be competitive and it takes doping the wind to win. You can have a rifle that shoots in the .2s all day but if you can't dope the wind might as well stay home and save your ammo. +1..................

[LoneWolf]

Uh oh. He's hooked! :)

Dedicated! To shoot the best I can with an Axis. Have not seen it's limit yet!

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