.17 WSM ammo comparison and more rifle observations

[fla9-40]

Stock work complete, but I do not think it helped as much as I hade hoped for. I have yet to shoot it due to weather but there is still to much flex in the magazine section where the stock is the thinnest.

I'm having same problem as you with mine, but I have not sent mine back....YET! Can only find 20gr so I do not know what mine will do with the 25's

Curious what all you did to the stock, can you post pics so we can see?



The ammo has variation and I have collect 25 split cases out of the 240 fired

I too have experienced split cases also...makes me wonder if Winchester is loading them to hot or using inferior brass suppliers.

Let us know how the range trip goes.

[gsperaz]

I'm having same problem as you with mine, but I have not sent mine back....YET! Can only find 20gr so I do not know what mine will do with the 25's

Curious what all you did to the stock, can you post pics so we can see?




I too have experienced split cases also...makes me wonder if Winchester is loading them to hot or using inferior brass suppliers.

Let us know how the range trip goes.


Sorry fla-9, I did not take any pictures of the procedure. It was a pretty simple task once I decided to do it.
I modified an old 3/16" "L" shaped allen wrench, shortening it up to fit between the fore-end dividers.
Then I ground the short end to a point for ease of melting a hole in each of the dividers about half way mark.
Heating the wrench, I melted a hole through each of the dividers to allow resin to flow between the dividers and lock all the pockets together. Roughed up the pockets with a dremel tool, and cleaned the surfaces.
I then taped off any areas I didn't want resin, mixed up some fiberglass resin and carefully pour it in.
I filled the pockets about 3/4 of the way from the top and let set overnite.
I hope to shoot it today if the rain ever quits. I don't expect a big improvement in accuracy since the real issue is the magazine section of the stock. But it is a little better then it was originally.

[gsperaz]

Well I had a chance to test my Bmag out today and see if the stock work made any change to the accuracy. All of the testing was done at 50yds from a bench with shooting bags front and rear.
All of the ammo has been weighed and grouped by similar weight (+/- .1 grain). All 3 round groups, letting the barrel cool between groups.
The front rest was kept close to the receiver as possible. I started with a clean bore and the 25gr ammo. The first group of 3 rounds had a 7/8" spread, 2nd group was 1-1/8'' and the 3rd group was 2-1/4".
Holy cow this thing is getting worse i'm thinking. So at this point I'm ready to pack it in, but I had 6 more rounds to shoot. I figured I might as will shoot them just out of frustration.....lol.
Too my surprise groups #4 and #5 only had a 5/8'' spread ! Now I can live with that if it was repeatable.

But I just don't get it, I used the same hold on the gun, squeezed the trigger ever so carefully but I cannot get consistent repeatable groups.
Ok I'm over it , so I switched to the 20 grain ammo . My success was short lived............
The first group punched a 1-3/8" group and the 2nd group was 1-3/16" spread. No change from the original stock.
Conclusion- The stock work had no effect to improve the accuracy or repeatability of the rifle.
On the other hand I did not have any split cases or fail to fire rounds.
The saga continues..........................

[Eric Mayer]

Weird.

Eric :cool:

[gsperaz]

Weird.

Eric :cool:

I know.....I can only assume at this point that I have some of the poorest made ammo around. I did buy similar # lots so maybe thats it.
But on the other hand, I weighed all of the ammo and shot ammo of the same weight ??????? :confused:

[gsperaz]

Out again today, 5- 3 shot groups @ 50yds with each ammo and today the 20gr ammo out performed the 25gr stuff. Conditions were good little wind, low humidity, just the opposite yesterday.
Best with the 20's was one group at 3/4'' group.
Best with the 25's was one group at 1" group. All the rest of the groups were between 1 and 2 inches.
Yesterdays best was 5/8" with the 25's.

[gsperaz]

What do you guys think about barrel harmonics causing some of the accuracy issues.
If you think about the higher pressures of the 17 WSM and the very thin barrel on the Bmag ? Combined with free floating that thin barrel, there is no rigidity to reduce harmonic waves.
That's, If they are indeed an issue.
Testing to follow........

[n4ue]

gspertaz, I kinda worked backward on this issue..... Before I even fired the rifle, I 'fixed' the horrible "flexi-flyer" stock (as I called it in old post).
The stock sure was a lot stiffer, my first groups were not good. I took the 'fix' out of the stock and although the POI was different, the groups were basically the same size. Since I kept the pieces of tubing I used for my fix (instead of throwing them away), I'll put them back in, one of these days. Just readjust the scope.
Then, at least my shooting buddies won't bust my 'stuff' over this stock......

ron

[atshrader]

I have had the 17wsm rifle on order at several local gun stores for over 6 months. To say the least I was very excited when one was available. I went to pick it up. It never made it out the gun store's door. I have never been more disappointed in my entire life of collecting guns!!!! The quality of a play rifle available at Walmart was better than this rifle. The action was very hard to cycle. The stock was flexible away from the barrel. I have been collecting guns since I was nine years old. I am now 68 and have over 60 guns. Remington-winchester-savage. This B-mag has to to be the worst gun that I have ever sought to buy. What a disappointment. Savage--You should be ashamed to introduce this gun as a product with your name on it. !!!!!

[syvairgunner]

I've held off replying on how the rounds I weighed performed but now after shooting over 250 rounds through my BMag, at 100 yrds, I am starting to have some idea of what may be causing the lack of accuracy. This past Wednesday I put 30 rounds through the B Mag which all weighed 67.0 grains. I had some fairly good groups and I had many, what air gunners call, fliers. Just for grins I weighed the empty cartridges to see how consistent the cartridge weights would be. Empty cartridges ranged from 33.2 grains to 33.6 grains.

I do not know how the rounds are manufactured but lets assume the bullets are very consistent in weight and the cartridges are filled by total weight of the cartridge and powder charge. A .4 grain variation in powder loads certainly would cause different FPS speeds and rounds to shoot low, high and dead on. I will attempt to get some answers from Winchester as to their manufacturing practice and just possibly a better quality control might be the result.

My thoughts are keep weighing the rounds and hope you get cartridges that weigh the same.

[Downunderimfire]

Here's my musings. Winchester owns the company that made the nailgun cartridge that the 17wsm is based from. If they already make the "base cartridge" (which maybe they neckdown, maybe they don't) then Winchester would not need to produce it themself, just get in the empties and fill'm up. My guess is (and I maybe totally wrong here) I doubt that a "nailgun" cartridge would be made to the same exacting standards as a cartridge that is purpose built. ? ? ?

[bflee]

I had thought about buying one of these but after reading this I will stick with my model 93 22 wmr. It only reaches to 150 efficiently but boy does it group. It has a heavy fluted barrel and is as accurate as any gun I have ever shot. Clover leafs at 50 yards and 1/2"-3/4" at 100.
Anything longer than that justifies the 6.5 creedmore model 12 LRP.

[gsperaz]

I've held off replying on how the rounds I weighed performed but now after shooting over 250 rounds through my BMag, at 100 yrds, I am starting to have some idea of what may be causing the lack of accuracy. This past Wednesday I put 30 rounds through the B Mag which all weighed 67.0 grains. I had some fairly good groups and I had many, what air gunners call, fliers. Just for grins I weighed the empty cartridges to see how consistent the cartridge weights would be. Empty cartridges ranged from 33.2 grains to 33.6 grains.

I do not know how the rounds are manufactured but lets assume the bullets are very consistent in weight and the cartridges are filled by total weight of the cartridge and powder charge. A .4 grain variation in powder loads certainly would cause different FPS speeds and rounds to shoot low, high and dead on. I will attempt to get some answers from Winchester as to their manufacturing practice and just possibly a better quality control might be the result.

My thoughts are keep weighing the rounds and hope you get cartridges that weigh the same.

I have weighed ammo as well and still cannot get groups to print consistent. Shoot 3 rounds that are 1.5'' , let barrel cool, shoot 3 more and the spread will be 3" at 100yds. What I can't under stand is the few folks with Bmags that shoot well right out of the box, without weighing ammo ? How can that be with ammo that is so inconsistent in weight. I have shot 350rds and at this point I believe it is the pencil thin barrel harmonics that is causing some of the inconsistent accuracy.
I want to try one of those rubber thingy's for harmonic dampening, they just slide onto the barrel just to see if it helps.

[Willy]

bflee, what ammo are you shooting?

[bflee]

Hornady 30 grain vmax. My rifle loves them. The bad thing is I can't find them anymore. I got several boxes when I bought the rifle and have had to buy CCI since then. They are not as accurate in my gun. I have found that the win heaters shoot about as well in the 30 gr. but they have primer issues with the 93 design. Most of the time about 7 out of 10 will shoot. I just hate pulling the trigger and hearing a click!

[gsperaz]

Well after several test sessions with my Bmag I still have not improved the accuracy at all. Most of the tests involved attempts to reduce barrel harmonics using rubber grommets and barrel supports. Again 50yd groups are mostly under an inch with the occasional flyer, 100yds forget it ! either ammo weight, weighed ammo, bench rested etc. I guess it is , what it is......a disappointment of a rifle.
After 400rds there is no rhyme or reason to the inconsistent groupings.

[Poor Shot]

I agree with the people saying don't put all the blame on the rifle. I have not gotten into reloading yet but I just got a new powder scale, an RCBS Rangemaster 750. I don't know whether it's a good or bad quality scale since I have never had one before. I just wanted to weigh these .17wsm cartridges and see for myself if they are as bad as I have read. After setting it up and calibrating it, I started weighing 20gr. cartridges from a new box. I quit after a little more than half the box. The weights were from 63.2grn to 65.1grn and I weighed them more than once and calibrated the scales each time I started over. Anybody care to comment on this? And yes, I probably don't know what the H*** I'm doing.http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/wood/misc/progress.gif

[syvairgunner]

A follow up on my previous post on weighing rounds and accuracy. After talking with a rimfire bench rest shooter and learning they measure the height of the rim along with the weight of the rounds I measured rim height and shot rounds that weighed the same and had the same rim height. Result: Did not make any difference on accuracy.

Went shooting yesterday and tried the 3 "O" Ring set up and again I can't say it made much difference. Started at 50 yards to make sure the rifle was sighted in then moved out to 75 with the thought of ending up at 100 yards. We stopped at 75 yards and gave up because of the randomness of the groupings. Happened to have my two air rifles with me and moved the target back to 50 yards and shot better groups with the air rifles.

After giving up on the range we moved to ground squirrel eradication duties on the ranch and by the end of the day we were at about 70% on squirrels out to about 125 yrds. So it may not shoot tight groups on paper but in the real world the odds are against the squirrels. This was with 67.3 and 67.4 weighted 25 grain rounds and gusting winds up to 15 MPH. To me the bottom line is it is what it is and a bench target rifle it is not.

[Jeremy B]

I wonder if the barrels were heat treated correctly, the BMag has one of the flimsiest barrels I have ever had on any rifle. The inconsistency in ammo doesn't help any, I weighed 15(I know, not that many) and shot them, measured the fps with the magnetospeed crony

Series Shot Speed Weight
1 1 2958 ft/sec 63.12 gr
1 2 2972 ft/sec 63.28
1 3 2970 ft/sec 63.46
1 4 2923 ft/sec 63.24
1 5 2953 ft/sec 63.42
1 6 2958 ft/sec 63.30
1 7 2962 ft/sec 63.44
1 8 2963 ft/sec 63.28
1 9 2983 ft/sec 63.44
1 10 2963 ft/sec 63.44
1 11 2927 ft/sec 63.44
1 12 2953 ft/sec 63.08
1 13 2958 ft/sec 63.28
1 14 2999 ft/sec 63.48
1 15 2956 ft/sec 63.48

Poorshot, it isn't a bad scale if it reads the same everytime you put the same weight on it

[JG26_Irish]

I weighed a full box of 25g ammo back in the fall and found it to have a wide range of total weights but when I shot the weighed ammo, I would get a few tight groups and a lot of groups that still had a "Flyer" and sometimes two. I kept most of the empty brass from that range session and weighed it, finding that the brass alone has a weight variance that even exceeded the loaded ammo. Now, my B-mag shoots pretty well when compared with many here. With 25g it groups (three shot groups) .0500" at 100yds and 1.300" at 200yds. Five shot groups always open up as the ammo is simply not of a match grade consistency. Frankly I doubt Winchester has the desire (or is it the ability???) to make match grade rimfire ammo. I have a 22lr that is capable of shooting 0.250 (sometime better) 5 shot groups at 50yds with good Lapua or Eley ammo. Loaded with Winchester T22 Match ammo it can barely group under 1" at 50yds. Need I say more? As for the 20g ammo, my B-mag shoots it to a 2" higher POI and larger groups. It does not like them much. With that thin little bbl, it is never going to be a match grade shooter even if we had Eley making the ammo for us.

What it is, is a nice hunter grade rifle with better ballistics than the 17hmr and light weight to boot. I like mine.

Irish