6" groups?

[tammons]

Are you cleaning between sessions? If so it needs fouling vs heating up. Residual oil is a problem for first few shots. I don't clean often!

I agree with this.

The only reason I could see the first few shots being open would be a too clean barrel.
Run about 10 rounds through it and take it to the range the next day dirty and shoot it.
Most guns need foulers to shoot tight.

[emtrescue6]

My guess is it likes to be dirty...I have a 270WSM and a 308 that won't shot worth a dang clean...I put a couple of fouling shots down them before the season opens and let them sit dirty all season, then they drive tacks.

[Westcliffe01]

Tim, I would urge you to stop shooting that rifle with the lead sled. Everything attached to the rifle is taking a pounding. The lead sled increases the acceleration (deceleration) thereby magnifying the forces on everything. You are not going to take the leadslead into the field and the best thing you can do is shoot the same way you would in field conditions.

I have heard of many people who have destroyed what are quite good scopes using a lead sled so if you keep this up it is quite likely you will break something.

I assume that this is a sporter profile rifle with a synthetic stock, chambered in 300WM. A combination like this is of course going to kick like the blazes. So to start off on the right foot (instead of simply being critical), may I ask you why it is so important to have a lightweight 300WM rifle ? Do you walk for miles and scale mountains with it, or does your health just not allow you to carry a heavier rifle ? It is not that a lightweight Win Mag cannot be done properly, but a light sporter barrel, tupperware stock and no brake is not the way to do it, because you will not want to shoot it and you certainly are not going to be encouraged to shoot it in field conditions. What Savage has done of course is a very cheap way of building a 300WM rifle, but then the performance of the rifle reflects its cheap price. A light magnum rifle is a sort of "holy grail" and ones that work tend to be very pricy with lots of special design features and attention to detail.

If your POI moves as you fire rounds, it could be fouling, but it could also suggest that the bedding is no good. Barrel heats up (which should not be touching anything) and expansion/ contraction induces/relieves stress in the action/bedding causing the POI to change. Sometimes it is the entire barreled action moving in the stock with every shot. See this Youtube video http://youtu.be/JdUhYz0q30o

#1, you can buy the a Varmint profile laminate stock here (http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/product.htm?pid=55072&cat=1222) for less than $100.
#2, properly bed the action and recoil lug and make sure the barrel and nut are properly free floated. The laminate stock is much stiffer than a plastic stock and also has a good recoil pad. A bit of extra weight in the stock is probably not misplaced for the caliber.
#3, if a varmint barrel is out of the question, at the very least look at using an effective brake, made for shooting in field conditions (no bottom ports). I suggest you read this http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/prototype-muzzle-break-100648/ to get a read on current muzzle brake development. That vendors brakes appear to really work.
#4. shoot your practice loads the same way you would in the field. I only shoot off a bipod and rear bag. You will develop confidence in what you can accomplish in the field and not be relying on divine intervention...

[*tim*]

I don't have to have a lightweight rifle. In fact I filled the stock with 16oz of silicone and 6 oz of fishing weights. And eventually it will get a heavy barrel and a brake along with a stock.

[Westcliffe01]

Even if you added weight to the tupperware stock, still watch the video of the scotsman and the way his Rem 700 behaved with POI moving aound all over the place. It very likely 90% of what is going on with your case. You don't have much to loose with doing a good bedding job on the stock. Given the cartridge, I suggest you use a steel or glass filled epoxy though, not just plain brittle epoxy.

The first bolt gun I bought as a Rem 700 sporter "classic" in 8x57. I was shooting full power 200gr FMJ eastern European surplus ammo in it. It too kicked like a mule. This summer I built a Savage 110 with a 26" Shilen Varmint barrel in 8x57, varmint stock. It is so nice to shoot with the extra weight (remember that barrel weight is directly coupled to the receiver and is much more effective than adding stock weight) that I have had teenagers shooting it on steel at 320 yards from a bipod and bag.

I unfortunately regard almost all the factory synthetic stocks as being "throwaway" stocks. The only exception so far is the glass filled stock on my 10PC which has an aluminum bedding block and the wedge. That stock seems to work very well and it holds the action really firmly.

[thermaler]

My axis 308 I find doesn't kick much at all, or maybe more accurately I don't mind it much because of the "ergonomics" of my set up. I shortened my stock a bit when I did the home stiffening job, this helps a bit with scope positioning and not having the buttpad leveraged hard at an awkward angle to my shoulder. I've had low-recoil rifles hurt because of longish pulls--and 300 win mag sessions that lasted hours due to a good fit. Just thought I'd throw that out there for consideration.

[emtrescue6]

It completely wized past me, but west has a point...leadsleds are the root of all evil in many ways and really have no redeeming values...they beat up rifles and scopes and certainly don't benefit the shooter in the long run.

[Thallos]

Tim,

Something to try here. This fall I hunted with a Savage 110 in .25-06 that would act similar to yours - first two shots were wild, 4-6" off in wild directions. 3rd shot on, right down to 1-1.5" groups, good enough for deer season. I attributed this to fouling the barrel. Went hunting in the cold and couldn't hit anything. I learned from the previous owner that the rifle does NOT like a free floated barrel. I took it to the range in the cold and shimmed the front of the stock to touch the barrel and it shot great, even cold.

So, here's my theory on my rifle - in the warm Texas sun, it only took 2-3 shots to heat the barrel up enough to expand just slightly and contact the stock. but in the North Dakota cold of deer season, it never go there. Easy test for you would be to take some thin cardboard with you and shim the front of the barrel to the stock and see if you can shoot a decent group from the start.

Thallos

[limige]

I think those lead sled sayings are myth it dont affect much. But that's another debate

Stop cleaning that's why your first shots are flyers. You should always hunt on a dirty barrel for that reason. Ten shots will usually begin to bring out the better groups but three helps a ton.

If you don't plan on shooting for several months clean it. Otherwise leave it dirty till the groups sour

[RP12]

When a person is shooting, the recoil is transmitted to the shooter, a natural recoil buffer if you will. With the sled, recoil is abruptly stopped, no buffering effect. The recoil forces are absorbed by the rifle and scope. (Now where did the reply go asking why the lead sled is a bad idea ? Which is the reason for this reply.)

[Westcliffe01]

I would imagine pretty much anyone who has bought a lightweight rifle chambered in a powerful cartridge, especially when paying <$1000 for the rifle, has been through this same mill. Just about everything additively contributes towards the owner being unable to shoot it well.

The stock trigger is typically not the best, but here I would say a standard accutrigger is about as good a factory trigger as you are likely to get

The recoil of the lightweight package induces the shooter to flinch, or tighten up, close his eyes before the shot etc etc

The recoil moves the barreled action around in the stock with every shot and works the action screws loose (plastic being springy it is harder to notice)

If shooting off a bipod, the stock flexes and touches the barrel, changing the harmonics and the POI. Which side it touches and how hard are dependent on how it is sitting on the bipod and repeatability of the shooters hold.

Quality of the sporter barrrels is marginal at best.

The recoil tends to encourage the shooter to use lighter bullets where the barrel twist rate may suit heavier bullets better.

My Rem 700 was a dead loss financially, because I replaced everything except the action and barrel and it still wouldn't shoot. At that point I baulked at the high cost of having the Rem action re-barreled and the total dependence on the gunsmith making a perfect job of chambering and threading the tenon.

The OP has a Savage, so he is in the fortunate position that replacing barrels is a much simpler and considerably less expensive process. The Savage barrels are also slightly better from the factory than seems the case on the Remington. It is only with the 6.5mm barrels that Savage seems to have a particularly bad reputation with chatter etc. The 110 style rifles have a fairly comprehensive range of aftermarket stocks available and there are several good pre-fit barrel makers. Custom barrels from some of the best names are possible (Bartlein, Krieger etc) though you have to send in your action so that they can match threads etc.

One simply has to work on all of the sources of variability until the whole package works. Sometimes you have to replace metal, sometimes you don't. I do not own any magnums, but the OP is certainly going to need to do something (either with a heavier barrel, or by using a brake) to reduce recoil so that he can physiologically work with the weapon.

I briefly owned a Desert Eagle 44 magnum pistol. I fired it a few times at the range, where it was a great tool for clearing benches a couple of rows in every direction on the pistol line. Despite all the reviews, shooting it hurt my wrists to such an extent that I could not bring myself to want to take it to the range. I found a guy who owned a DE 1911 G in 45acp and we did a trade. Now the DE 44 mag was one of the heaviest pistols ever made, but that still could not compensate for the power of its chambering without porting or a brake. Magnum weapons are not for everyone, at least not cheap ones...

[thermaler]

I have the same gun and it is a heavy banger fer sure--it's the one I installed the SSS trigger on. I also have put an after-market clamp-on brake which seems to help with recoil somewhat--but I have since also shot the rifle with brake removed and have not noticed any significant change in accuracy whether the brake is on or off.

I subscribe to the theory of barrel harmonics affecting the bullet's accuracy as it leaves the muzzle--specifically the balance of the muzzle blast and bullet path down and exiting the bore. I have an AR carbine which has a rather odd and annoying habit of no matter what I fire through it it groups around 4" at 100 with a guaranteed flier or two out of 5 shots. Admittedly it has a stiff trigger and a conventional (non free-float) handguard, but even with those limitations I can usually get close to an inch/inch and a half with a decent barrel on other AR's. I eventually discovered that if I pulled the stock towards me and held the handguard in such a way as to eliminate as much muzzle lift as possible I could halve the size of the groups, though getting sub-MOA with this particular weapon remains elusive.

The 300 win mag is a lot of horsepower for the relatively light construction of the trophy hunter IMO. I'm still pursuing a hand-load for mine that consistently groups sub MOA @100 (and I would prefer to develop loads with ladders at longer range but don't have that option for now) but in general I can get it to group somewhere between 1 to 2 inches, which is good enough for moderate range hunting applications but obviously limits it's long-range use--which is one of the things the cartridge is known for. I don't know if the stock conventional sporter barrel can really deliver long range performance with the 300 win mag--but I suspect it sure is going to deliver a sledge-hammer blow to whatever game you hit at close to moderate range.

[pdog06]

1- get rid of the lead sled.
2- if your scope bases are the factory 2 pc bases, replace them with warne or burris steel bases, or egw or warne 1pc base.
3-quit cleaning so much. You should clean the barrel when the accuracy falls off. It sounds like your rifle likes a dirty bore, so you're wasting alot of ammo just fouling it.

[LoneWolf]

Get rid of the lead sled! Yes they reduce recoil felt by the shooter dramatically, but they don't allow the rifle to recoil naturally. Therefore even if you got it zeroed with the lead sled it would still be different when you shoot it while you're holding it. Get a good sand bag tight cheek weld and make sure the rifle fits you!

Once the rifle fits you you need to tune your shooting set up to be comfortable to you. whether you're shooting off a bench or off the ground. As stated early make sure everything on the rifle is the way it should be. Personally. I wouldn't run that scope on a 300WM. I would get something known to handle the recoil of a magnum rifle. I like the SWFA line of scopes. They are rated for use all the way up to 50BMG.

When it comes to getting a rifles accuracy tuned it takes checking it over for the problem over and over again until it's perfect. I was helping a guy at the range zero a Ruger American that wouldn't stay on paper at 50yds. Came to find out the barrel was pressed up against the side of the stock. I think he took it back and got a Savage.

Good luck to you and stay on it, it will shoot once you determine the culprit.

[Stockrex]

duct tape
exercise ankle weight or wrist weight from walmart/target - 5lb

attach weight to butt stock,
secure with layer of duct tape so weight does not slip off.
fire away.

[*tim*]

The gun doesn't kick that bad I bought the lead sled just to rest on. I have a hard time holding anything still. The gun came with a good pad and with the weight I put inside the stock I can shoot 20 rounds without being in pain. I was just trying to eliminate some of the human factor since I've done pretty much everything else except for a stock. I think the problem is I've been cleaning it too much so I'm going to try that

[teebirdhyzer]

If it doesn't shoot better dirty I would just get a new barrel. You can find take off barrels on here for very little money, or you could get an aftermarket one from one of the several makers that advertise on here. You might even check Numrich. They use to have some Savage stainless magnum weight barrels for the .300 for less than $100. I bought one of them in .270 from there and it will shoot in the same hole at 100yds.

[*tim*]

In case it doesn't shoot dirty either is there a chance savage would warranty the barrel? I've had it about a year and a half and have been fighting it non stop

[LoneWolf]

In case it doesn't shoot dirty either is there a chance savage would warranty the barrel? I've had it about a year and a half and have been fighting it non stop

Sometimes they will, sometimes they don't. I'm pretty sure their warranty is only for 1yr, butnyou could give it a try. Just don't be upset if they aren't able to help you out due to the time that has passed!

[limige]

Your on the right track shoot dirty exercise your trigger control use what ever rest you want.

But fyi beware of cheap scopes on large rifles. But it sould like your almost there