New Reloader With Newby Question; Crimps

[Silvercrow1]

Well, I've been blessed by being able to get the funds up for a decent reloading outfit. I got the RCBS Rockchucker Supreme Master kit on sale at Cabelas. Loaded some .223 for load development, using Hornady Soft Point .224, 55Gr. (REALLY good price and great transaction with Jim @ Northland, listed in our Classifieds section)). The reloading I did was on my buddys set up- he is an experienced reloader.

He's been busy and I'm inpatient. (NEVER pray for patience BTW- the trials come harder and faster:eek:)

My question; The bullets aforementioned have a cannelure. The RCBS die set I got (also on sale at Cabela's BTW) made a nice roll crimp. I ALSO have Hornady V-Max bullets boattail w/o cannelure. Can the die be set up to do taper crimps? If so can someone direct me to a tutorial?

I did look through the archives here last night. Maybe I was too tired but I couldn't get anything to come up.

As always, thanks in advance!

PS= I've heard some discussion about taper vs. roll crimp. I can see where pressure may increase with a roll crimp and a roll will probably damage a bullet w/o cannelure, but are there any other variables? Thanks!

Brian

[davemuzz]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/adjust_reloading_dies.htm Read this. It provides a pretty good explanation. I'm not a huge Chuck Hawks fan, but some stuff he has is good. This one is good.

Dave

[Nor Cal Mikie]

If you're "full length" resizing, IMHO, you don't need to crimp, even with gas guns. There's enough neck tension to keep the bullet in place.
If you're using "bushing dies", you select the proper bushing to get the neck tension you're after.
I never crimp but that's just the way I like to do it. Seat the bullets where you want them and forget about the cannelure. So far, I've never seen the need to crimp.

[fgw_in_fla]

What Mikie said.
If I seat a bullet .030" off the barrel lands the cannelure is not even near the case opening.
Never crimped, never will. I like the set the neck tension for holding the bullet in place.

[JW]

I agree with Mike and Frank
I would not roll crimp the 223 , just seat them to your desired length and have fun
I do have a lee factory crimp die that I use on 223 set up with a very light crimp
Don't think a roll crimp die can do a taper crimp too
I hope this helps
Jack

[bootsmcguire]

I agree as well. I almost never crimp bullets for rifle rounds. When I do need to crimp I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die. It seems to give me the most consistent results and is easy to set up.

Don't rule out crimping as a possible benefit to accuracy, but that is not the norm. I had a 12" twist 22-250 barrel that would shoot 55 V-max's great, but only with a light crimp and a bit of a jump. Tried many different seating depths and even jamming the bullets a bit, and they just shot the best with the light crimp and jump. That is the only time I have had that work out that way, all of my other barrels shot best without a crimp.

[fgw_in_fla]

Of course, if you absolutely, positively HAVE to crimp, pick up a Lee crimp die in your chosen caliber. They make short work of it.
They're not too awfully expensive, too.

Welcome to your next addiction.
OCD will follow shortly.
Good luck & happy reloading.

[missed]

I only crimp my autoloader ammo.

Neck tension for everything else.

I have a severe OCD with my reloading, ha you should see my spreadsheets for my loading and range reports!

[eddiesindian]

same here....I lee factory crimp on anything that loads auto, and neck tension for all bolt guns.
ive never roll,d or taper crimp,d any rifle rd. only on pistols

[Silvercrow1]

WOW- Thanks for all the responses and info. guys! I'm pretty "anal" using the Freudian vernacular, so I cant wait to really get into this.

I REALLY do not want to crimp the bullets. Neck tension is the way I'd like to go. I'm asking if I can adjust the die so that I can get a consistent taper or neck tension- whatever is the proper terminology.

I bought the RCBS .223 Rem. dies when I got the kit- so it looks like I gotta get another "seater die" to do taper crimps? My die does not use bushings (that I'm aware of anyway) but when my buddy set the die up on his press he crimped them. Very light crimp. I thought I might be able to adjust the die so that at full throw, it would not contact the "crimp" part of the die. I apologize for not knowing the terms etc- I'm trying to learn and want to do well.
Thanks for all of your patience and thoughtful responses.
Brian

[Dispatch1]

Like JW said about Lee Factory Crimp Die. You can set it to give just a little bit of crimp and it is forgiving to slight variations in case length. Wont break the bank either

[bootsmcguire]

Take your seating die, and thread it into your press a couple of turns. Then take a piece of sized and trimmed brass and put it on the shell holder and then run the press to the top of its stroke. Screw the die down onto the brass until you feel it lightly make contact with the brass neck. That is the crimp part of the die hitting the brass. Now just back your die away from the brass 1/4 to 1/2 turn, and tighten your die's lock ring, securing it to the press. Then just set the die for your desired amount of bullet depth and you're all set. No crimp, only neck tension.

[bootsmcguire]

The Lee Factory Crimp Die is not a seating die. It is a die that only crimps and does so after the bullet has been seated in the brass with your regular seating die. If you do not want a crimp then this die is not needed. But if you do want to crimp, the Lee Factory Crimp Die is the way to go.

[MacDR]

Just a note. The Lee FCD does not need a crimping cannelure. Bullets with cannelures can be crimped anywhere on the bullet. Case lengths can vary. Your RCBS dies roll crimp which does require a cannelure. BTW you set up a roll crimp by turning the die down to touch the case mouth then lower the ram slightly and turn the die another quarter to half turn down. To get a consistent crimp in the cannelure all cases must be trimmed to the same length. I also shoot the Hornady bullets you mentioned. I have found my best accuracy midway between start and max using Varget. I believe that crimping increases peak pressure consistency and therefore aids accuracy. I have found that my standard deviation drops when I crimp.

[Silvercrow1]

Take your seating die, and thread it into your press a couple of turns. Then take a piece of sized and trimmed brass and put it on the shell holder and then run the press to the top of its stroke. Screw the die down onto the brass until you feel it lightly make contact with the brass neck. That is the crimp part of the die hitting the brass. Now just back your die away from the brass 1/4 to 1/2 turn, and tighten your die's lock ring, securing it to the press. Then just set the die for your desired amount of bullet depth and you're all set. No crimp, only neck tension.

Greetings Boots! THANKS- that's the info. I was looking for! I was HOPING I could do either with this die! SO much to learn...but to me the joy is in the learning AND the doing! Brian

[Silvercrow1]

Just a note. The Lee FCD does not need a crimping cannelure. Bullets with cannelures can be crimped anywhere on the bullet. Case lengths can vary. Your RCBS dies roll crimp which does require a cannelure. BTW you set up a roll crimp by turning the die down to touch the case mouth then lower the ram slightly and turn the die another quarter to half turn down. To get a consistent crimp in the cannelure all cases must be trimmed to the same length. I also shoot the Hornady bullets you mentioned. I have found my best accuracy midway between start and max using Varget. I believe that crimping increases peak pressure consistency and therefore aids accuracy. I have found that my standard deviation drops when I crimp.

THANKS MacDR-good stuff! I did measure (I should say I assisted in measuring-) and we trimmed where necessary.

What's a good rule to follow in deviation in length? In other words, if the New Guy doesn't have the sheckles to buy his own trimmer and is sorting cases; is say +/- .01 or +/- .005" (pulling numbers out of my...hat...at random here) good? I REALIZE in a perfect world they'd ALL be 1.760, but for sorting purposes etc. Thanks again!
Brian

[MacDR]

Lee sells a case length gauge and a cutter that includes the lock stud and shell holder. The shell holder and guage are specific to the caliber but the cutter and stud can be used with multiple calibers. It comes in a large and small cutter. The small is used for calibers up to around .308. The gauge trims to just under the SAAMI spec. After trimming you need to clean the burrs on the inside and outside of the case mouth.
The critical issue with case length is cases that have stretched to the point that the case mouth is constricted by the chamber where it steps into the freebore and prevented from expanding. This can lead to significant pressure increases.

I respectfully suggest you purchase or borrow a good reloading book such as Lee's second edition. Another I found quite good is The ABC's of Reloading by Rodney James. It is available electronically. Get in the habit of checking with more than one source. Stick to the components in recipies and always work up. Above all don't be led astray by those who scoff at generally accepted safe hand loading practices as the work of lawyers. Yes much of the specs given by SAAMI and powder manufacturers are conservative. They have to be as there are a wide range of firearms and components out there. However if you listen to the scoffers and come to believe it is therefore okay to fill military surplus brass to the max load and with a magnum primer, with the cases trimmed down and the bullet seated to compress the powder so much that you need to crimp it in with a heavy roll crimp to keep them from popping out, then please shoot somewhere away from innocent bystanders.

[Silvercrow1]

Lee sells a case length gauge and a cutter that includes the lock stud and shell holder. The shell holder and guage are specific to the caliber but the cutter and stud can be used with multiple calibers. It comes in a large and small cutter. The small is used for calibers up to around .308. The gauge trims to just under the SAAMI spec. After trimming you need to clean the burrs on the inside and outside of the case mouth.
The critical issue with case length is cases that have stretched to the point that the case mouth is constricted by the chamber where it steps into the freebore and prevented from expanding. This can lead to significant pressure increases.

I respectfully suggest you purchase or borrow a good reloading book such as Lee's second edition. Another I found quite good is The ABC's of Reloading by Rodney James. It is available electronically. Get in the habit of checking with more than one source. Stick to the components in recipies and always work up. Above all don't be led astray by those who scoff at generally accepted safe hand loading practices as the work of lawyers. Yes much of the specs given by SAAMI and powder manufacturers are conservative. They have to be as there are a wide range of firearms and components out there. However if you listen to the scoffers and come to believe it is therefore okay to fill military surplus brass to the max load and with a magnum primer, with the cases trimmed down and the bullet seated to compress the powder so much that you need to crimp it in with a heavy roll crimp to keep them from popping out, then please shoot somewhere away from innocent bystanders.

THANKS MacDR- I assure you, I am well past the age and attitude where I don't pay attention to things critical to safety. I will take your advice and live by it in reloading.

BTW- I JUST THIS AFTERNOON got the ABC's Of Reloading! Ordered it Monday on Amazon. I'll be reading it, as well as the Speer manual I got with the kit. For another manual to have I'd like to get the Sierra, but the LEE you mentioned sounds good. I get the impression that LEE is not as "brand specific" as other companies may be; what I mean is I think they have the philosophy that information should be objective rather than slanted in favor one way or another. Sierra also seems that way; they state in their reloading manual that they will help reloaders even if they are not using Sierra or affiliate tools / components.

OH..I picked up the "One Caliber, One Book" manual too. Looks like they copied and collated the .223 Rem info from various manuals. Looks good, and again I will read multiple professional sources.

LOTS of reading and learning to do. I'm having a ball already!
:nod:Brian

[eddiesindian]

defently lots of reading and learning when it comes to reloading. If you have a fellow friend/shooting buddy who is an expierenced reloader then that helps as well.
books/specs/tuitorial/ are your best friends.
If your mechanically inclined then even better. Owning a set of digital calipers is a defent must.
As time goes on...you,ll get it going.
I will say one thing though....never become complaycent(sc) while reloading....try never to get distracted....double and triple ck yourself.

[Silvercrow1]

defently lots of reading and learning when it comes to reloading. If you have a fellow friend/shooting buddy who is an expierenced reloader then that helps as well.
books/specs/tuitorial/ are your best friends.
If your mechanically inclined then even better. Owning a set of digital calipers is a defent must.
As time goes on...you,ll get it going.
I will say one thing though....never become complaycent(sc) while reloading....try never to get distracted....double and triple ck yourself.

Thanks Eddies- You got it and I WILL! Check and check again. There are some activities where you might not get a second chance with a mistake; shooting and now reloading, are some of those activities.

I did get a pretty good digital caliper from Home Depot. Not a Mitutoyo, but it's a "General Tool" and seems to be precision made. I bought an odd lot of tools at an auction years ago for $12.00. In it was a small velvet lined box with a Mitutoyo micrometer in it, 1" size, and a "Joe" block. I LOVE that thing, LOL; ran around measuring stuff like a little kid. SOME things stayed with me in a metal work course I once took- appreciating fine measurements was one...:eyebrows: Brian