Primary Extraction Failure-- swapping bolt handle didn't help

[stangfish]

The easiest fix is to find a bolt handle in spec.

OK So I will bite. So how many licks does it take to get to the center of the tootsie roll?

[earl39]

OK So I will bite. So how many licks does it take to get to the center of the tootsie roll?

3 and no time for popcorn:brick:

[BillPa]

Guys,


Is there really no simpler solution than set screws?


Kuduman


I'm not sure how simple it can be. Your drilling - taping two 6-32 holes which takes only a few minutes, installing two 10-15 cent set screws, adjusting them and the best part, its 100% reversible. Down the road if you change the bolt handle, bolt body, bolt head, extractor or the brass you can readjust the screws or remove them all together depending what's required.

About the only easier way I can think of would be a few layers of duct tape on the baffle! :p

Bill

[kuduman]

I'm not sure how simple it can be. Your drilling - taping two 6-32 holes which takes only a few minutes, installing two 10-15 cent set screws, adjusting them and the best part, its 100% reversible. Down the road if you change the bolt handle, bolt body, bolt head, extractor or the brass you can readjust the screws or remove them all together depending what's required.

About the only easier way I can think of would be a few layers of duct tape on the baffle! :p

Bill

Well, I may have to try that. (The set screws, not the duct tape.)

[BillPa]

Well, I may have to try that. (The set screws, not the duct tape.)

If you look at my picture you'll see the one hole is drilled high. That's to clear the baffle tension spring bore, so be a little careful...measure twice.....cut...errr... drill once. BTW, they're blind holes. Drill them about .180" deep or roughly 1/2 the thickness of the baffle.

Another little tidbit. Since they're blind holes you can add a piece of #8 lead shot so the set screws have something to bottom out on. As you crank down on the screws to get about .070 - .075" PE (what I like) the shot will form to the hole and screw. The screws can be removed, the 242 added and the screws returned back to where you had them set.

Bill

[sharpshooter]

That will work if you have a baffle like Bill has in the picture. That baffle is one of the later ones that are investment cast. The earlier baffles were sintered and are harder than Kelsey's nuts.
I would suggest to weld up your spare "outa spec" bolt handle....it doesn't work now, so you have nothing to lose.

[kuduman]

That will work if you have a baffle like Bill has in the picture. That baffle is one of the later ones that are investment cast. The earlier baffles were sintered and are harder than Kelsey's nuts.
I would suggest to weld up your spare "outa spec" bolt handle....it doesn't work now, so you have nothing to lose.

I don't have "outa spec" bolt handles, unless you're suggesting my brand-new Tactical Works one is also out of spec? Somehow, I doubt that. But it may get welded on anyway.

I think I've got the same type of baffle as Bill shows in the picture. But I don't have a drill press, 8-32 tap, 242 loctite, or #8 shot... So it's still a massive headache compared to just buying parts that are right.

[bodywerks]

With your bolt locked into battery, start fitting feeler gauges between the baffle and the receiver body and find out how much you can stuff in there. If it's .035 you need a spacer of sorts, about .032 glued to the baffle, because any amount of for/aft play in the baffle is a direct reduction of primary extraction.
Mine was about .022 in play and couldn't extract. Glued a fiber washer to the baffle and sanded until i could barely fit a . 003 shim. Bolt now extracts better than any bolt rifle i have cycled.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

[kuduman]

With your bolt locked into battery, start fitting feeler gauges between the baffle and the receiver body and find out how much you can stuff in there. If it's .035 you need a spacer of sorts, about .032 glued to the baffle, because any amount of for/aft play in the baffle is a direct reduction of primary extraction.
Mine was about .022 in play and couldn't extract. Glued a fiber washer to the baffle and sanded until i could barely fit a . 003 shim. Bolt now extracts better than any bolt rifle i have cycled.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

Bodywerks, that sounds like something I can do. I have not measured that gap, but will do so. Gluing on some sort of shim and sanding it down is quite easy. What sort of fiber washer did you use? Are there big ones that can fit the whole baffle?

[bodywerks]

Like dense gasket material. I think it was an actual fiber washer. Got it at ace. Used super glue. Also saturated the washer with it to kinds harden it after i got the final thickness.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

[sharpshooter]

How would you know that the bolt handle is in or out of spec? Do you have a print handy to check it?
Post some pics.

[stangfish]

Fred or Jim,
This out of spec thing has me currious. Does anyone have standard dimensions of the bolt and action faces they are willing to share?

If someone has truee the action including lug faces could this not present the primary extraction issues on the other end? If we new the standard dimensions we could make the correct assesment of whichparts are out of spec. Otherwise you take whatever route you can to fix it no addressing the real issue.

[bodywerks]

How would you know that the bolt handle is in or out of spec? Do you have a print handy to check it?
Post some pics.

Is this directed at me? If so, no, i don't have a print handy to check. However, my bolt, with said handle extracted fine for a stock setup. After replacing the bolt face with a ptg unit and installing a Krieger barrel (ditched the barrel nut) it did not. I know the rebarrel job didn't induce the problem and i know the headspace was checked and triple checked. I'm pretty sure a combination of the new bolt face and properly set headspace(every stock savage i owned had sloppy headspace, as evident by stretch marks on the base of fired cases, even with factory ammo) induced my issue.
The ramp angles of the handle match perfectly to the baffle and both are polished. The timing of the handle itself is as close as it can get given the design (slop between the tabs on the bolt body and slots in the handle). Yes, spacing the baffle did advance the extraction timing but mine needed it.
All i know is mine now cycles and extracts smoother than any other savage i have touched so i did something right.

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

[sharpshooter]

No, the post wasn't directed at you, it was directed at everybody that wants to speculate about whether their parts are good when in reality they don't have a clue because they have nothing for a benchmark.
I've been doing bolt handles for a long time, and yes I have several factory prints. Over the last 20 years the bolts handles have changed cosmetically, but the business end is always the same....until a few years ago. For some unknown reason, the engineers decided that the extraction ramp should be smooth, so they machined the surface after casting. This may have smoothed the ramp, but it also changed the geometry. As you can see in the pic, the left handle has a wider ramp, which places it farther away from the ramp on the rear baffle.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/sharp-shooter/extractionramp_zpsd43328b6.jpg

[sharpshooter]

@#$%^&*( Photobucket seems like it changes format every time I log on. I wanted to post the actual photo.

[stangfish]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/sharp-shooter/extractionramp_zpsd43328b6.jpg


There will be no attempting to circumvent the vugarity filter or you will be punished!

[bodywerks]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/sharp-shooter/extractionramp_zpsd43328b6.jpg
Lets see if that fixed it



PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

[bodywerks]

Yeah, i am familiar with the changes in the bolt handle ramp. Interestingly, even after they do what they do they leave a little nub of material that grinds against the baffle so they only half succeeded.
Ironically, the only time i encountered a problem with extraction timing being too advanced was when i installed an SSS bolt handle. It still extracted but i could tell that the lugs weren't quite clear of the lug faces, and it was rough. Took 2 hours of filing and polishing to get the timing right and to smooth it out.
There's no doubt that you know how to make a savage work, but for those of us that don't want to wait for months we have to figure things out for ourselves and tackle it on our own. Maybe i just got lucky, but mine cycles flawlessly, and my gunsmith commented that it was easily the smoothest cycling savage action he has worked with.
I'll post pics later...

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

[bodywerks]

Here it is. It's not as smooth as my stiller action and bolt lift effort doesn't begin to compare(6.5lbs for the savage, 4.75 for the stiller) but for a factory, home remedied action its quite nice
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130906_173035_647_zps7822db00.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130906_172954_550_zpsd2c9ea94.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130906_173336_678_zpsb23c3d3f.jpg

[bodywerks]

The bolt lever is still factory, but was modified slightly for my own handle
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/2013-02-14_21-16-43_737_zps5f49b2e6.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/2013-02-14_21-17-17_507_zpsd47893a5.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/2013-02-15_00-02-38_114_zps2b4a8b9d.jpg