Mark II FV Failure to Eject issues

[jsand70]

First I must say my Son and I are having a blast with this rifle. Shooting at 100 yards (benchrest with front & rear bags) we are both shooting 10 round groups inside 2" excluding 1 or 2 fliers. I know most people shoot better but were new to this sport and will hopefully get better quickly. Even with the fliers we both had big smiles on our faces leaving the range yesterday.

So now for the ejection issue...we only shot 150 rounds through this rifle so far and I would estimate 20 to 25 have not ejected. Were using CCI SV and we have put several hundred rounds from the same brick (500) through a Ruger Mark III pistol and have not had a single ejection issue with the pistol. Do you think it just needs to be broken in or should I contact Savage? Thanks.

John

[jb6.5]

Check the extractor, make sure the hook has a positive angle to the rim and falls all the way against the cartridge body. Take the bolt out and slip a hull in on the bolt face it should hold it up on its own. Then you can see if everything fits like it should.

[jsand70]

Okay, I will give that a try. Unfortunately the next few days are busy but hopefully will have a chance over the weekend to check it out and re-test it at the range. Thanks for the info.

[kevin1]

I have the same ejection issue on my Mark2 G.

I actually feel some resistance as the bolt is pushing the round through the chamber. Once fired, the round doesn’t eject and gets stock in the barrel. This usually happens with standard 40g lead that are lubed. With copper plated ammos (like AE 38g HV) I get much less ejection problems (and they are chambered easier as well).
When I clean the rifle it’s better, but I start getting ejection problems only after around 100 rounds.

[shanejohnson2002]

I will say this: If you do end up having to send it in to Savage for repair, the few I've had to send to them always came back in perfect working order.

[kevin1]

I can’t send it back to Savage.

It has the accurizing package from Savagegunsmithing and Savage will probably not do anything (I spend more money on the package than on the actual rifle).

Yesterday I examined again the rifle. There was a lot of junk build up below the chamber (near the top of the magazine). It’s an area I had never cleaned (and hadn’t noticed either). So I gave it a good cleaning with Hope 9, Q tips and air spray.
Hopefully this will help.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

The barrel where the extractor relief is, is often off by a couple thousandths or is burred up. Or, if this is a new problem, just dirty.

You'll need to pull the barrel and very carefully inspect that relief. Begin by making sure it's clean enough to eat off of.

If that doesn't do it, check for burrs. Take any you find off.

Next, insert a fired casing and see if the cut is deep enough that the extractor can actually grab the rim. If not, you'll have to take a bit of metal off and do the job that should have been done by the factory.

Do not go too far or you'll end up in the chamber.

If you have any doubts whatsoever about what you're doing, take it to a gunsmith.

Regards,

Josh

[kevin1]

I analyzed carefully the rifle and took some pics.
I get the impression that the extractor has “eaten” into the metal where it locks. I’m surprised because I though the metal of the extractor would be softer.
This kina makes sense as I started having the ejection issues since last year (rifle purchased new in 2010).
Can this be the issue? I’m thinking of getting a steel or bonze brush and give the chamber a good scrub.

BTW, I chambered and extracted an unfired round and didn’t notice any blurs on the round.

http://imageshack.us/a/img89/2706/o9p4.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/5759/27r6.jpg

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Check for burrs/raised portions where that dent is.

A dental pick is good for this. Just don't scratch too hard.

Regards,

Josh

[kevin1]

Gave it a good rub with a coiled stainless steel brush and tested the rifle again with CCI SV.
First 50 rounds, no issues. But then I started getting FTE…
I did notice the following… Some of the round are pretty difficult to chamber (not all). Could the chamber be too tight?

[Josh Smith]

Sounds like the chamber might be dirty. Scrub it with a nylon brush.

I still think you don't have enough relief in the barrel cut. I had the same exact issue and have heard it on others'.

Regards,

Josh

[kevin1]

Can you please explain what you mean when you say “not enough relief in the barrel cut” and what I need to do? I’m not sure to understand.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I'm working on posting pics I just took.

I'm suddenly being told that my posts won't be visible until a moderator approves them. Wasn't like that before, and I was a member before the new board. Strange.

Josh

[Josh Smith]

And now, no moderator approval needed. Strange again. Back to the pics.

[Josh Smith]

OK, first, let's go over the different types of brass so it can be seen why rimfire chambers are the way they are:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/images/introduction-to-22-box-collecting/22sllr.jpg

The above is rimfire. In this case, it's modern .22LR, but all rimfire uses this basic construction. Picture from Cartridge Collectors.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/UMCselflubricating32SW.jpg

This next picture is representative of the first centerfires: Note that it has a "balloon head" or unsupported case head. This type of cartridge requires full support, and this is why early centerfire rifles and pistols had recessed chambers.

Fairly recently in metallic cartridge development, the modern centerfire was developed:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-99TWd1wWMzI/UDYHZFAGvtI/AAAAAAAAHtk/jc6x4cfvWPY/s400/8x57mm%2Bcase%2Bsectioned.jpg

The above is a 7.92x57jss (8mm Mauser). It was borrowed from http://carteach0.blogspot.com .

The increased case head thickness allowed the 1911 and other pistols to exist:

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Rimfire/unsupportedcasehead.jpg

That's my personal carry pistol and that's all the support the chamber provides in a non-ramped barrel 1911. Since the .45acp only runs at around 21000psi, full case-head support is not needed. However, at around 35000psi, even a thick case head will begin to bulge, and this is why you sometimes see .40S&W from Glocks with bulges.

How does this apply to the present?

Well, the .22LR is of the earliest metallic case design, and therefore requires full case-head support:

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Rimfire/chamberrelief.jpg

This means that, unlike the controlled-feed 1911 shown above, the rimfire's extractor must let go after helping to control the round in the chamber. That's what the relief cut is for.

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Rimfire/roundinserted.jpg

The extractor is moved out of the way by the relief cut so that the round can be fully chambered.

Unfortunately, this doesn't always work well. If the rifle is not given individual attention, the relief cut will allow the extractor to jump the rim instead of grabbing it when the bolt is pulled back. The one you see above was relieved until the point just before it would have become dangerous.

I apologize for the gunk on my rifle; I don't clean it until precision begins to suffer. It's about that time. I've not gotten around to it because I've not been shooting it; I'm low on rimfire rounds.

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Rimfire/extractor.jpg

Additionally, I've reshaped the nose of the extractor. Only about half of it can make contact with the relief cut, and so instead of landing on the crud which accumulates due to the location of the safety venting holes, it sort of pushed it up and out of the way. I tried this before altering the cuts in the barrel, and I believe it's contributed to sure extraction.

The Savage is a great design that's really just poorly executed. I won't be getting another one as I spent some time on phone with the rimfire division back on 2007 or 2008 when I bought this one. They were rude, tried to tell me about a "break in period," and the like. In the meantime the improperly-heat-treated sear sloped, and I had to get inside and fix things using some of the gunsmithing training I'd been receiving at the time. It was obvious their warranty was not worth the paper it was written on.

If you decide to take the route I did, be very careful. Don't take too much metal off and check your work often. By this I mean, one or two swipes with a stone, reinstall the barrel, and check. Also check headspace when you're all finished.

I do apologize for the somewhat blurry pics. I was having trouble with proper lighting.

Regards,

Josh

[J.Baker]

Hello,

I'm working on posting pics I just took.

I'm suddenly being told that my posts won't be visible until a moderator approves them. Wasn't like that before, and I was a member before the new board. Strange.

Josh


And now, no moderator approval needed. Strange again. Back to the pics.

That's because you had less than 5 posts at the time and you were including a URL or image link. It's part of our anti-spam security system, didn't you see the sign on the front door when you came in? ;)

[Josh Smith]

That's because you had less than 5 posts at the time and you were including a URL or image link. It's part of our anti-spam security system, didn't you see the sign on the front door when you came in? ;)

Hello,

I did not. I did figure that because I was a member before, I'd been switched over. My first post on this new system was visible right away. But no big deal either which way :)

Regards,

Josh

[alphie]

John,

I just purchased a Mark II and have experienced the same issues. I'm new to this forum, so it appears this thread was started awhile ago. In my case, the only ammo I've had the issue with is the CCI SV. I've shot Eley, Remington, RWS, and Federal with no issues at all. My gun is brand new, so I thought I'd give it time to break in, and I've cleaned it twice. Has your issue gone away without repair, or did you have to get it fixed?

[IPSC]

Josh....I notice from your pics from post #15 of this thread...... that you have the 2 "extractors" reversed as installed in your gun. The one with the "sharp" hook should be on the right-side ( as you view the rifle from the shooting-position end , looking toward the muzzle). The "rounded" version.... (not really an "extractor" but more of a "cartridge holder").... with the rounded-end beak, should be installed on the left side.

Unless I am mistaken....I think you have these in their reversed locations. It would certainly cause extraction problems.

[jsand70]

John,

I just purchased a Mark II and have experienced the same issues. I'm new to this forum, so it appears this thread was started awhile ago. In my case, the only ammo I've had the issue with is the CCI SV. I've shot Eley, Remington, RWS, and Federal with no issues at all. My gun is brand new, so I thought I'd give it time to break in, and I've cleaned it twice. Has your issue gone away without repair, or did you have to get it fixed?

Sorry for the late reply but I have not been getting an email from the website when someone replies to the thread. Anyhow, the problem seems to have gotten better but has not gone away, I have too much on plate at the moment to mess with it and just manually pull the shell out when it does happen. How about your situation? Did you find a solution?

John