Caldwell lead sled or higher mag scope?

[Nandy]

Trigger, I feel for you. I am another of them visual guys. I can read documentation but it slowly turns in to blah, blah... Like you I rather get hands on. I want to help you but I am affraid I will become the blah, blah.... LOL!

If you have problem understanding moa and making adjustments you will have problem with mil as well. If you are going to shoot multiple distances you will have to do the math at some given time, period. You can have a ballistic computer do the math for you but you need to understand ballistic and how they work if you want to be good with your gun. To make it easier I get on paper and do my adjustments at 100 yds. At that distance every click of your scope will move the reticle 1/4 of an inch and it is very easy to relate the movements of your POI to the movement of your scope.
Lets supposed that we are shooting with a perfect load and all your shots are going in the same hole at 100 yds and that hole is 2 inches high and one inch to the left from the bullseye. That will mean that you will have to adjust your scope 8 clicks down and clicks 4 to the right. The closer your target is from 100 yads the less impact these click changes (perceived of course) will have. If you move the target at 50 yds (half the distance) the 8 clicks will not move your POI 2 inches but half which is just 1 inch. If you move to 200 yds (double the distance from 100 yds) the same 8 clicks will double the movement of your poi to 4 inches, 300 yds will be 6 inches, etc....
Get in paper at 100 yds, I have seen people in the range shooting at a 3'x3' cardboard to get in paper, do what you must, heck, if you go to a range with a range master I am sure he/she will be happy to help you or if too busy point out someone to help. I am sure that will get you in the ball.

Now, one thing that happens is that your scope might not track well. That is when you make an adjustment and the crosshairs does not accordingly. There are 2 things I was taught to do to help minimize this problems. one is to lightly tap the turrets with your screwdriver after makings adjustments. The other thing your can do is... picture your turrets adjustment as if they were plain screws. When you are tightening the turrets (clockwise) the turret is pushing the erector tube (where your scope crosshairs lives) against a spring so the movement tend to be correct all the time. Now when you move the turrets counterclockwise now the spring moves the erector as the turret screw recedes and then is when most of the tracking issues can occur. In those instances when I am moving the turrets counterclockwise I go past 4 clicks of my desired adjustment and then move back those 4 clicks. that will make the turrets move the erector tube (instead of the spring) which as I mention before tends to be true to the adjustments.

There are more things that can adversely affect the adjustment of the scope and not be the scope. The president of my lease and his son all they have in their guns is nikon pro-staff bdc. His son is a great shoot and kill deer at 100+ yds thru the season. I have seen him shoot on paper too and he has never have a problem with those scopes.

I wish you lived closer so we could spend some time in the range. I am no expert and do not have all the answers but I think I could help you get started...

[trigger-finger]

[QUOTE=Nandy;198508]Trigger, I feel for you. I am another of them visual guys. I can read documentation but it slowly turns in to blah, blah... Like you I rather get hands on. I want to help you but I am affraid I will become the blah, blah.... LOL! /QUOTE]

Thanks for the help Nandy. When I get the basic "equipment" that I'm happy with I will probably take a class or something. I'm sure I will figure it out just takes practice...

[pitsnipe]

trigger,

If I might lend some insight here. I have read through this post. And found myself saying out loud to MY PC (read that you are a computer guy and thought you could appreciate that) "this guy needs guidance" Not to be mistaken with help. But direction and clarity. You are making this a WHOLE lot more difficult on yourself. Trying to have the same POI as your POA at various distances inside/shorter than your "zero". I would choose a distance for a zero, any distance, just pick one. The industry "standard" is 100 yards. Shoot your chosen ammo at that distance and dial windage and elevation so that you hit (POI) where you aim (POA). And then leave it. Now, that said, if you purchase a "tactical" scope with "exposed" turrets, AND understand what value each click has at various distances then by all means, make an elevation adjustment for that 450 yard shot from that 100 yard zero and send it. Otherwise, learn what the sub tension value is of the MIL or MOA scales of the reticle (in the scope of your choice keeping in mind FFP and SFP limitations/characteristics) and hold over or under. Much like you would (or were trying to) do with the BDC reticle. But I would take some advice you received earlier and go to/join a gun range/club and get some good advice from those who can explain it to you in a way you can wrap your mind around.
Good luck and
GOOD SHOOTIN!

[trigger-finger]

Interesting thoughts and I appreciate your input. But, I actually don't need guidance or help. I need about $2000 to build a rifle combination which will keep me enthused. In short order I made many mistakes in my purchase.
1. Sport barrell in 308. Wish I had choosen bull barrel with muzzle break in 243 or 270.
2. Cheap scopes suck. Should have listened and never wasted my time buying a kit scope. U outgrew ut in less than 6 months.
3. Didn't know it when I first started but I really hate not having iron sights. But, to compensate I want a scope which has everything I need in tge reticle. I want to use holds, above, below lead and follow.
This is my well thoughtout preference which meets how my brain works best. Now what I could use is a loan to get the gear which meets my needs. I was never going to shoot 1000 yards targer with a kit scope with max 9x zoom. Probably not even accurately at 400 yards. BDC reticle or Nikon scopes are just not for me. Nightforce would probably keep me entertained.

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[Nandy]

I can understand wanting to upgrade, that is your decision and not necessarily wrong or right. After reading all your comments and questions in this thread I think you will have the same problems with the $2k ring as you have with the combo rig.


I actually don't need guidance or help.
Totally disagree but I will heed.

[Wogger]

I have to agree with Nandy here.
I don't mean to be a dick but you need to learn how to use the equipment you have before spending money on expensive ****. Put your rifle with your "cheap" scope in the hands of a competent rifleman and you'll soon see how capable it is. I can understand wanting cool stuff but it won't replace your lack of skill.
You need to learn the basics first.

My advice to you is this,

Zero your rifle for 100 yards and just shoot the rifle. Shoot at every distance you have access to without touching the scope, just hold over or hold under and learn the ballistics of your cartridge/rifle. Do this untill you can confidently hit your target at varying ranges with repeatability.

At this point you will have a reasonable understanding of bullet drop and wind drift. If not you need to shoot more. Then start playing with the scope so you can aim dead on and hit the target at varying ranges without hold overs. Don't bother adjusting the scope ever again for anything under 100 yards, the rifle will shoot pretty flat from 0 - 100 yards without adjustment. Only adjust for bullet drop and windage at longer ranges.

This should simplify things enough to keep you entertained untill you bring your skill level up.

[trigger-finger]

http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/eastern/30391-slope-dope-precision-rifle-class-level-ii-va.html

One of the requirements for courses I will take require an easily adjustable scope with target turrets. I feel my learning wont truly start until I get a scope capable of reaching my goal of shooting 1000+ yards. That scope should be based on the Mil-dot standard as I will be using the Mil-dot Master Calculator. I will also be using a rifle data book which also is based on Mil-dot specs.

The scope I currently have is not adequate for what I am trying to learn in terms of marksmanship and would not allow me to further my long-range shooting objective / education.

So at this point the help I would like is making a good investment in a scope which I will probably have long after this beginner rifle.

Requirements:
Mil-dot, FFP, parallax, 20-24x zoom, 1/10 mil turret adjustments, Tactical turrets, quality glass, max 50mm obj. lens, 30mm main tube.

Nice to have but not required:
illuminated reticle, G2 or BTR-MIL reticle, locking turrets, lens covers, sun shade.

You can't play basketball very well in boots you need the right tool for the job...

[tyler.woodard04]

Then the shots I make with my strikers out to 650 yards with my cheap Nikon's are luck? Your talking cheap ammo and guns and scopes but then talk 2k rigs and night force scopes but are shooting less than 100 yards right now? What happened to the oldtimmers using 4x scopes shooting woodchucks at crazy distances?

[tyler.woodard04]

Please don't take this as rude or a knock at you. What is your previous experiences with guns, rifles up to this point? Getting back to basics might help you out in the long run

[trigger-finger]

Hello Tyler,
Actually, I grew up shooting rifles but this is my first time owning one.
As I said above, I'm quite sure some people can consistently hit long range targets with low powered scopes or "iron sights"
Normal "basics" is not my goal. I am interested in "millitary basics" thus the desire to learn mil-dot. That is more interesting to me than the rifle itself. And yes I am aware millitary also teaches the use of iron sights.
I want a Bushnell Elite 6-24x50. I guess Savage shooters don't use mil-dot scopes. (By the way that was a joke).

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[trigger-finger]

By the way. I am shooting 1/4 " MOA at 100 yards cold bore. As my sport barrel heats up the groups tend to open up or I start to flinch from recoil.

I don't really seem to be getting the information I am looking for....

[pitsnipe]

trigger,

I apologize if I misunderstood your dilemma. All this said, I guess I can offer what glass I have found effective for shooting MIL/MOA at targets beyond 600 yards, to the capability of my hand loaded .308, out to 1100 yards. (hit a crow at 417 yards in a steel shoot this spring cold bore) I use a Leupold Mk 4 6.5-20 X 50 LRT ILL TMR M5 (had the M1 dials converted to M5) SFP, as I wanted a reticle that didn't change in subtension with magnification. And knowing that, I range estimate at 20 power as the scope is sub tended at that power. I wouldn't go with much less in glass than that. Many other options/brands/and prices but it works for me at the price I paid for it. Good luck and good shootin.

[thomae]

Cameraland's Deal of the day for today (Aug 7) appears to meet trigger-finger's previously stated scope requirements.

[trigger-finger]

Thank you pitsnipe. I absolutely wish I could afford a Leupold with the features I want. So because that scooe is not FFP subtension do change with magnification and are only accurate at 20x max zoom, right. Thus the need for higher quality glass as all of your ranging is done at 20x range where lower quality scooes will start to loose light, clarity and field of view. Got it. If you had a choice would you still choose MIL/MOA scope? Any advantages over MIL/MIL other than the math being easier?

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[trigger-finger]

Thomae also thanks, perfect choice meets all my requirements exactly. The Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP looks great and is in simular price range as Bushnell 6-25x50 FFP. For $799?
****, I thought this scope was out of my price range. Which is better Vortex ir Bushnell?

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[trigger-finger]

I may have to pull the trigger on that deal of the day. Good looking thomae....

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[pitsnipe]

Thank you pitsnipe. I absolutely wish I could afford a Leupold with the features I want. So because that scooe is not FFP subtension do change with magnification and are only accurate at 20x max zoom, right. Thus the need for higher quality glass as all of your ranging is done at 20x range where lower quality scooes will start to loose light, clarity and field of view. Got it. If you had a choice would you still choose MIL/MOA scope? Any advantages over MIL/MIL other than the math being easier?

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My scope is MIL (TMR) MIL (M-5 dials) I was speaking MIL/MOA to mean a unit of measurement, i.e. shot MOA at 850 yards so that was an 8.5" group. As for ranging, I have a laser for most of it. But like to "dabble" in using the 1 MIL increment to determine distance to target then verify/clarify with the laser. Plus the laser poops out around 900 yards most times so then use the MIL's.
Good luck in your scope search.

[airdale]

Thomae also thanks, perfect choice meets all my requirements exactly. The Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP looks great and is in simular price range as Bushnell 6-25x50 FFP. For $799?
****, I thought this scope was out of my price range. Which is better Vortex ir Bushnell?

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Vortex, I have one. After sticker shock you'll love it.