Primers, How flat is too flat?

[therichardpowell]

So I just started reloading, and went out this morning to test out some loads and try to find my max load. I guess I will list out the components I am using and the processes I used to load them.

Winchester once fired brass
CCI 250 Primer, only primers I could find and my friend checked his Speer book and they called for a magnum primer for 2520
Accurate 2520 powder
Sierra 165 Grain Game King Soft Point Boat Tail

Full length resized and deprimed using Hornady spray lube
Trimmed to 2.006", Chamferred and deburred
Tumbled in crushed walnut and nu polish and a touch of mineral spirits
Charged to exact by hand with a scale and a trickler
Bullets seated to .020" off the lands, No crimp

So I went and shot some this morning and got flattening primers way before I expected. I am using the Lee 2nd edition book, and they show a minimum load of 42.9 grains and a max of 47.7, so I started at 43 and increased in .5 grain increments. 43 grains shows no primer deformation, 43.5 I could tell the primer changed a bit but just barely, and 44 grains I got a flattened out primer...

43 Grains
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p736/therichardpowell/165SGK43Gr2520_zps6a1647b3.jpg

43.5 Grains, Inconsistent flattening
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p736/therichardpowell/165SGK435Gr25202_zpsc20e0451.jpg
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p736/therichardpowell/165SGK435Gr2520_zps495ec962.jpg

44 Grains, flat...
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p736/therichardpowell/165SGK44Gr2520_zpse8dd5580.jpg

I don't have any ejector indenting or stiff bolt lift, the only other thing I can see is a mark where the ejector appears to scrape on the head maybe when lifting the bolt? Picture #3 kinda shows it. Is this something I need to watch for as well?

So at what point do you start backing off? I felt like the 43.5 grain is probably the max. It just seems weird that I am getting pressure signs a half grain above minimum. I will probably load up 10 rounds each of some lower charges to try for accuracy but then I will be under the book minimum... I have since found some CCI 200 primers, should I try them and see how it goes? Just looking for ideas, again I am totally new to this so I just want to make sure I am being safe and gonna get the best BANG for my efforts. Thanks in advance for your guys' consideration.

[scope eye]

Neck tension can do that.

Dean

[therichardpowell]

I should have mentioned. I am using lee dies and getting about .002" neck tension.

[scope eye]

Also is it they original barrel or has it been swapped.

Dean

[therichardpowell]

Again, sorry for leaving stuff out.

Stephens 200 in .308 Win
Original barrel
Pretty much a new gun. Never been messed with.

[Mr. Bruce]

Dean - Couldn't too much head space also cause this?

[therichardpowell]

Another tidbit of info, factory ammo didn't seem to flatten them out. And I shot one round through my friends savage 11 and it showed up about the same if not a little worse. His left an ejector mark. He just looked in his Speer manual and they show a starting load of 41 grains and a max of 45... Maybe lee's book is a bit hot?

[scope eye]

Dean - Couldn't too much head space also cause this?

Ironically I have seen this with to much and to little headspace, go figure,

Dean

[Mr. Bruce]

Accurate lists AA2520 with 165 SIE SBT Min 42.9 and Max 47.7 exactly the same as Lee.

[bythebook]

Sierra manual #V-- 6th printing lists Min. 36.3 to a max of 42.7 with that bullet and AA2520.

[wbm]

Doesn't look "too flat" to me at all. Also I don't see any marks on the head of the brass from hard extraction.

[Westcliffe01]

If there is plenty of space left in the cartridge, you should probably try a slower powder. Hodgdon Varget is working good for me. AA 2520 lists as #96 on the powder burn rate table and Varget is #99 so they "should" not be that far apart. But I am shooting a heavier bullet and "needed" a slower powder....

The Varget load is listed as 42-46C gr at 2582 - 2773fps with a 65gr bullet
The fastest load listed is with CFE 223 at 45.4 to 48.3gr and 2649 - 2839 fps

This is on the Hodgdon reloading website which of course does not list other powders...

[therichardpowell]

I would love to load up some varget. But there is someone that hits our local Walmart everytime they get a shipment and buys all of it. I was in there a couple weeks ago and they actually had some powder. The clerk and I were shooting the breeze and he mentions that they got in 12 lbs of varget that same day. He says its like the guy knows their shipments. They don't even know when it will come in, but this guy shows up 15 minutes after a shipment comes in and buys all the varget, one other powder, and he brings friends and wipes out the 9mm and 223 ammo... I couldn't believe they had 12 lbs at 2 o clock and when I got there after work they were out. I guess he was there at 2:15 and wiped it all out... So frustrating.

[therichardpowell]

Sierra manual #V-- 6th printing lists Min. 36.3 to a max of 42.7 with that bullet and AA2520.

So it sounds like the lee book is on the high end of the spectrum. I know Sierra can be a bit conservative, but at least I won't be under a book minimum.

So I guess I will load some up in the 41-43.5 grain range and see how they group.

I hope to get a chronograph some day to see how fast I am actually shooting but for now I will have to shoot my drops and calculate it off of that.

[scope eye]

Doesn't look "too flat" to me at all. Also I don't see any marks on the head of the brass from hard extraction.

Actually that is what I was thinking, my regular loads the primers are a lot flatter than that, without giving it a second thought, but I was trying to be good "I really tried" it could also be that batch of powder so I would try something else.

Dean

[82boy]

I would say that 44gr is where I would have some concern.

[wbm]

Would go with standard LR primers. IMR 4064, Varget, Reloader seem to be some of the best powders for the .308

[JASmith]

I have been told that some primers have harder cups than others. I know from personal experience that at least one lot of primers was too hard for my S&W Model 64, so I accept the information as likely to be valid.

A primer brand softer cups will show signs of flattening earlier than other other brands with harder cups.

[therichardpowell]

First of all forget the magnum primer in a 308, don't care what Speer says. Stop shooting that foreign made new fangled "girly powder" that probably has oatmeal in it and start shooting some REAL 308 powder like IMR4064, H4895, Varget etc. Your rifle will thank you.

Not serious except for the non magnum primers and the powder recommendations parts.

Ok. I am not gonna give up on what I have already started but I got some info on another forum. The earlier Accurate data indicated 45 grains as a max load, and take away a grain or so for the magnum primer and that sounds about right.

But on your recommendation I put together some loads with Accurate 4064 that I have. With CCI 200 primers. I also have some IMR 4895 that I may try if I dont get results. I would love to try Varget. Just need to find some...

[wbm]

Got some Accurate 4064 last month. Have never used it before but the from the load data it looks to be just a wee bit faster than the IMR but that could just be from lot variations. Reloader 15 is also one you might give a go. Anyway hope you get it shooting like you want.