20 Tactical - aka 20-223

[MikeCTX]

From another thread (did not want to hijack it)

DannoBoone ask
"MikeCTX -- not to change the original subject, but what dies do you use for your
Tac 20? I have no problems with mine prior to fire-forming, but the cases become
very large for the full length Redding dies. The .20 Hornady neck die results in
terrible case run-out, resulting in mediocre groups. The pre fire formed rounds get
1/4" or less groups, if I do my part."

I use Redding FL die set (did not spring for one of the Type S dies) and Forester does not make a 20TAC die. Using Dakota/Lapua brass and have a no turn neck (.232) and so far having no issues. The neck is tight (and depending on the brass have given the neck a light turn). Might want to check the headspace on your fireformed cases and bump them back just a bit, .001 or .002. That seems to be what has helped me the most so far.

There are a few 20 Tactical shooters here, so hope some of them will stop by with their thoughts too!

[stevec]

I cut .100 off of a .204 ruger die. Made my own seater. no problems, work great.

Steve

[sinman]

a 20-223 is not a 20tac, a 20-223 is a 20practical

[savage rookie]

a 20-223 is not a 20tac, a 20-223 is a 20practical


"The Tactical 20 was designed by Todd Kindler - Editor of Small Caliber News www.smallcaliber.com and owner of The Woodchuck Den, Inc. www.woodchuckden.com for precision long range varmint shooting. The goal was to design a twenty caliber cartridge with super long-range performance, but on a modest case design to minimize recoil and noise. Todd also selected the time proven and readily available top quality 223 case to base his Tactical 20 on (most shooters call it the 20 TAC or TAC 20 today). Todd designed the 20 TAC with the accuracy proven 30 degree shoulder and the proper neck length to accommodate a wide range of bullets that he knew would be available down the road. "

The Tac 20 has some shoulder adjustment and the 20 Practical is a simple neck down.

[MikeCTX]

a 20-223 is not a 20tac, a 20-223 is a 20practical

yeah...I know, just not wild about the 20 Tactical name, should have said 20-223 improved if anything, but then folks associate that with Ack Imp ... lol. I should just get used to the name, because it does help people understand what i'm talking about ;)

[DannoBoone]

From another thread (did not want to hijack it)
I use Redding FL die set (did not spring for one of the Type S dies) and Forester does not make a 20TAC die. Using Dakota/Lapua brass and have a no turn neck (.232) and so far having no issues. The neck is tight (and depending on the brass have given the neck a light turn). Might want to check the headspace on your fireformed cases and bump them back just a bit, .001 or .002. That seems to be what has helped me the most so far.


My setup was made, including dies prior to ever even hearing of the .204 Ruger, and possibly prior
to everything being "standardized" for the Tactical 20 (I never cared for that term, either....even
Kindler has had regrets calling it that). The barrel was reamed for the Tac 20 by Virgin Valley Custom
Guns (sure hated to see them fold up). There was no other choice at that time to get dies from
anyone but Todd Kindler who contracted Redding to make them for him. The Redding FL die does a
great job forming the .223's to the Tac 20. However, once they are fired the shoulder/body of the
cases are larger than the die by enough thousandths that they REALLY come close to sticking, even
with good case lube. I wonder if the reamer die for the rifle barrel was somewhat larger than what
was considered "standard" by Redding.

The .204 neck die made by Hornady does work, but case runout stinks. As far as I'm concerned, their
"wonderful" expander ball would be a good thing to replace with their old type........even with their
"One Shot" sprayed on the inside of the case necks, that expander ball can still pull hard enough to
pull the area between the neck and shoulder. A neck die would work fine for my rifle if it didn't do
that to them, which leads me to this:



I cut .100 off of a .204 ruger die. Made my own seater. no problems, work great.

Steve


I would be willing to spring for another neck sizing die to do what you have done. Was the die pretty
hard for the cutting tools? What kind of die did you use? According to Hornady 7th Edition, the OD on
the neck of the .204 Ruger is .231, while the OD on the neck of the Tac 20 is .233. Has this caused
any problems with your loads?

"a 20-223 is not a 20tac, a 20-223 is a 20practical"

Actually, a 20-223 is just a 20-223. CH-4 has had chamber reamers for these longer than there were
factory bullets for them. The "name game" has really been nutz for these similar rounds. A good smith
(believe his name is Greg Tanner of Gre-Tan) thought it was goofy to bump the shoulder back on the
Tac 20, so he reamed a little deeper with the same reamer so the brass could just be "AI-ed" on the
fire-forming shot (makes a lot more sense). I believe he dubbed it the "20 Tactical", having just a bit
more capacity than the Tac 20. It is believed the 20 Practical will feed in semi-autos a lot easier than
the Tac 20. At one time the Tac 20 would have had a velocity edge over the 20 Practical but newer
powders have given increased velocity to the 20 Practical since the days it was just a 20-223....new
name, older round, not that there's anything wrong with it.

If I shoot this barrel out, I'm gonna get with Gre-Tan for the next!!

Thanks, everyone for your replies.

[stevec]

Danno, I used a RCBS 204 die. My fired rounds measure .231 nk and my die resizes to .228nk.
Dies are only hard on the surface(inside and out) the center is soft. You will need carbide tool to cut it but it isnt bad at all.

Sounds to me that the problem you are having is with the .223 brass. Are you turning the necks? if not that could be the problem with the runnout.
Have you tried the Dakota/Lapua brass? It is wonderful stuff!

When I ordered My reamer from Dave Kiff(pacific tool and guage) He told me that Hornady ordered a 20 tac reamer from him and ran it in .100 deeper to develope the .204ruger.

Steve

[DannoBoone]

hmmm.......I wonder if a .100 spacer could be used under a .204 Ruger die while setting up???
The lathes to which I have access are not dependable to get much more accurate than .005.
I am tickled pink with my Forster dies, but they make none for the Tac 20, and I would hate
to turn one of them down. If I thought a spacer under a .204 Ruger die would work............
it would get ordered today!

Yes, I turn the necks. Cases used have all been .223......Win, Rem, Lapua, and IMI. The IMI
brass gave me just over 1/8" group during fireforming! Wish I could find more of it. Wish my
Redding FL die could be reamed out to match my cases after fireforming. I'm definately having
problems with the dies. Forgot to mention the Hornady neck die works fine minus the expander
ball.....case runout is very accurate without it. With it in, it pulls hard enough to make severe
runout.

[stevec]

hmmm.......I wonder if a .100 spacer could be used under a .204 Ruger


No it wont work, That would make you die Longer not shorter.

You could chuck your seater stem in a drill and sand the ball down a little.

Steve

[MikeCTX]

Not sure how much it will help, but for my Redding FL die, I use one of the Redding Competition shell holders - the +.004 and then have the die screwed down almost touching (about the a dimes difference). Had to fiddle a bit to get the shoulder to bump back between .001 to .002. This made the most difference with the fired brass (Dakota/Lapua). The chamber on the Shilen was a .230, that the smith took and opened up just a bit to .232 (it is a bit on the tight side) but it seems to be kind to the brass. Can hardly fit a bullet into a fired case after I fire one. Have 3 loads on these cases right now, and they measure just like they did after the first time. Seem to recall reading that there was a slight difference when TK first started between the chamber reamer and the dies...wish I could find the reference....could be another round I'm thinking of.

[Three44s]

I have some .270 brass converted to .25-06 and I fireformed one case to check neck clearance with a start load.

The rest of that brass is waiting for a .257" neck turning pilot so I can outside neck turn.

It's my understanding that when a bullet won't easily enter a fired case mouth ... you're courting trouble and pressures will surely rise.

Just my .02 worth

Three 44s

[DannoBoone]

"Seem to recall reading that there was a slight difference when TK first started between the chamber reamer and the dies...wish I could find the reference....could be another round I'm thinking of."

That would certainly explain my problems with the fire formed cases!
Being one of the first to get set up with the Tac 20, I could have gotten
caught right in the middle.

"No it wont work, That would make you die Longer not shorter."
Duh, there I go thinkin' backwards!

"You could chuck your seater stem in a drill and sand the ball down a little."
Have been tempted to do so....since I have so very little to lose.

"It's my understanding that when a bullet won't easily enter a fired case mouth ... you're
courting trouble and pressures will surely rise."

Know of a gent who calls himself "Varminter Al"? He purposely has tolerances so close
in both his chambers and cases that he needs no neck sizing for reloading at all. But
then, he knows exactly what he's doing and his original case prep is a very painstaking
process.

[MikeCTX]

I have some .270 brass converted to .25-06 and I fireformed one case to check neck clearance with a start load.

The rest of that brass is waiting for a .257" neck turning pilot so I can outside neck turn.

It's my understanding that when a bullet won't easily enter a fired case mouth ... you're courting trouble and pressures will surely rise.

Just my .02 worth

Three 44s


Have considered that may be running on the edge of too tight...and watching for pressure signs of any kind. So far so good, but have also turned some new brass by .001 all the way around. Unturned the neck thickness is .013x2=.026 + .204 for .230 (if the chamber is on the low side of .232 then this is may be to close) - turned neck is .012x2 = .024+.204 for .228. Rounds extract without issue, primers are still round so will just have to watch new brass and check the neck wall close - the Dakota brass has been very consistent, but will not take that for granted - each case will be measured and given a light neck turn just to be safe.