Scope Leveling datum plane

[FW Conch]

Scott:
Your use of the VRL makes more sense to me than most any other method I see out there. I appreciate knowing your system and will use various aspects of it when I can put the extra time into mounting a scope. My shooting is limited to 300yds so, as you mentioned, my
scope installation methods only need to suite me within that limit.
I have built houses using a good 4' level & a string line level, & "the marbles never ran to one corner of the room". The string line level
is checked by the 4' level on a long piece of 2by framing lumber which is "eye ball" straight. This can produce good results, & we are in agreement on that. But scope bases have about a 1/2" mounting surface which really isn't even flat. And a level 1" or 2" long sitting on a surface that is not true in the first place is why scope levels are "next to useless to me". I would not attempt to build a house using a 6" level.
For long range shooters who have a level on their scope/rifle, if you look up at your bubble and judge it to be plumb, look down at the cross hairs and your nose itches and you scratch it, look back up at the bubble .... at what point do you feel good about breaking the shot?
I am surprised that I haven't seen a scope yet with a "level in the sight picture"?
I have dreamed of someday owning an action that was "trued", with a machined in scope rail on it, with a barrel matched to it with perfect matching threads, and on and on with all the other stuff that goes with it. But I don't see that happening soon.
But I have learned from this discussion and very much appreciate what has been shared :) !
Thanks Very Much..... Good Luck & Good Shooting :) .....Jim

[stangfish]

In the end is if you are able to keep the horizontal crosshairs level with the gravity of the earth and the vertical perpendicular, you have the battle won.

[sab1]

Your use of the VRL makes more sense to me than most any other method I see out there.

Thank you, Jim, but I can't take full credit. My method is a conglomeration of many that I have come across over the years. I don't think there's much "new content" in my method - it's simply taking the best parts of various methods and putting them together into a system that I've found works.


I have built houses using a good 4' level & a string line level, & "the marbles never ran to one corner of the room". The string line level is checked by the 4' level on a long piece of 2by framing lumber which is "eye ball" straight. This can produce good results, & we are in agreement on that. But scope bases have about a 1/2" mounting surface which really isn't even flat. And a level 1" or 2" long sitting on a surface that is not true in the first place is why scope levels are "next to useless to me". I would not attempt to build a house using a 6" level.

If you are talking about the "whiz-bang" scope leveling "kits" out there, I agree. I have purchased several over the years, and none of them work well, for the reasons you point out. On the other hand, if you are talking about a rifle-mounted scope level, mounted and trued to the VRL, I disagree. They do work, but as we agree, you have to be shooting over 500yds to see the results.


For long range shooters who have a level on their scope/rifle, if you look up at your bubble and judge it to be plumb, look down at the cross hairs and your nose itches and you scratch it, look back up at the bubble .... at what point do you feel good about breaking the shot?

Remember, most long range shooters are using some type of rest (one has to, in order to be accurate). The rifle is not moving around enough that a quick glance with the weak eye (without moving one's head) will cause problems. Again, this is a tried-and-true, proven-on-the-range practice. It really does work!


I am surprised that I haven't seen a scope yet with a "level in the sight picture"?

Jim, ask, and ye shall receive:

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/newton3407/fal2/bubble_level.jpg

I "borrowed" that photo from another web site, but it shows the factory-option internal bubble that U.S. Optics offers to their customers. Unfortunately, U.S. Optics products are priced very high. It would be nice to see other manufacturers offer it.

I've enjoyed this discussion, Jim!

Keep 'em in the X-ring,
Scott

[FW Conch]

Wow ! I shouda known ? Thanks Scott :)

[stangfish]

Konus has them in their M30 scopes.

[glassbeaver]

A one piece rod is very stiff and will twist the rings without you realizing that they are being twisted. It will force the rings to be straight, but they are elastic and will be "sprung" into that position (as soon as you remove the rod, they will spring back out of alignment). That twist can be overcome by a thorough lapping, which will essentially line-bore the rings, but there are two problems with that situation. First, the amount of material you have to remove during lapping when there is a twist in the rings could be relatively massive. Second, if you ever decide to reuse those rings, and you've lapped the heck out of them, you may have rendered them unusable on another rifle.



glassbeaver - boxing a scope won't reveal a vertical misalignment problem very well, since vertical misalignment only comes into play at long distances, and boxing at long distances is difficult to do accurately, due to too many other influences besides vertical alignment (like wind). If you never shoot at long distances (over 500 yds), vertical misalignment is not a big deal. The only tools I use to mount a scope are a bit and torque wrench, alignment pins, and a lapping rod. Oh, and a vertical reference line. What's so fancy about that? I suspect you use everything I do except the alignment pins. Are those considered "a lot of fancy stuff?"

Regards,
Scott

Couldn't agree with you less. If its off at 500 it will be off at 100.

[sab1]

Couldn't agree with you less. If its off at 500 it will be off at 100.

glassbeaver:

You are correct - it will be off at 100yds, but the error is so small that you won't notice it. The reason it won't show up at 100yds is that vertical scope axis-to-bore axis alignment affects POI in direct proportion to bullet drop. The farther the bullet is from the sighting axis, the greater the error.

If you don't believe me, shoot a 1000yd match with a misaligned scope, then align it and re-shoot. You will become a believer. Of that, I am confident...

Regards,
Scott

[yobuck]

seems to me life is far more complicated today than it used to be.

[sab1]

seems to me life is far more complicated today than it used to be.

That it is, yobuck, that it is. :)

Remember, the scope mounting technique I presented really only becomes necessary if you want to compete in long distance matches.

Regards,
Scott

[Sundodger]

Try this type. Without additional measuring the pointy thingies only show the points align.

. http://i50.tinypic.com/2ibzxmo.jpg http://i43.tinypic.com/20r9q1k.jpg

If you look closely you'll a gap where the bars meet at the bottom . It was a result of the rear ring having a burr, about .002" on it's base tipping the rear of it up and forward.

After correction the rings were bedded to the scope.

That set is about 25 years old, they're one of those long forgotten old gunwreaker tools. You can read about the "re-invented" ones here....
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/kokopelli-scope-ring-alignment-tool/

Bill


Bill,

Thank you, I really like those. I am going to try and flip my "pointed" ones around and see if that gets me the same result. Otherwise I might try to pick a set up.