Cleaning question

[IUOE]

How often do you clean? I notice with my rifle that after a really good cleaning, usually every 20-25 rounds, it takes about 4-6 shots to settle back in which is beginning to take its toll on my small stock of supplies. I'm hoping I can get away with prolonging it to 40-60 shots. Is that feasible?

[rjtfroggy]

Most of mine go 150-175. You will know it is time to clean when the accuracy goes away, then it will still take the same 4-6 shots to bring it back.
Remember everytime you clean it depending on how you clean you are taking some life out of the barrel.

[jb6.5]

I clean my guns every time I go shoot for the first few times, seems to slick everything up, after that I clean them when the groups open up a bit. My creedmoor has had about 150 rounds through it without cleaning, still shoots one hole at 100 yds. Everyone seems to do it a little different.

[BillPa]

it takes about 4-6 shots to settle back in which is beginning to take its toll on my small stock of supplies.

Try pre-treating the bore with Lock-Ease (colloidal graphite). First, patch out with denatured or rubbing alcohol to remove any oil then run a patch with LE and give the carrier few minutes to evaporate. If your not using a good bore guide swab the chamber with the alcohol to remove any LE.

The LE tends to duplicate the initial powder residue layer and most times the first shot out of a pre-teated barrel will be closer in both velocity and group as the rest of the shots in the string.

As a side note, I don't like oil in my barrels but I don't like to shoot them dry either. The LE solves both problems.

Bill

[thomae]

Just remember that Graphite is hygroscopic and could conceivably promote rust in the barrel.

[Joe L]

I won't clean mine until the groups are over 1 moa at 500 meters on a calm day. Nearly there, I think, 235 since any patches, 448 since bore scrub. 578 rounds total since new.

Joe

[stangfish]

It never hurts to run a dry patch through after a session.

[IUOE]

Thanks guys, that info will really help since I have yet to settle on a load to base any changes in my gun on.

[Joe L]

It never hurts to run a dry patch through after a session.

Yep, I went a little long. It took 3 wet and 30 dry patches to get the bore clean again. I won't wait that long again!

Joe

[IronworksTactical]

I run 1 maybe 2 patches down the bore between outings otherwise I don't clean it until accuracy degrades. You want the barrel slightly fouled to fill in any imperfections in the barrel which is why when clean it requires a few (fouling) shots to get the accuracy back.

The other time ill clean the the bore really well is if I'm switching bullets such as from Barnes to Hornady or Sierra. Otherwise you usually can't get a goo performing load to work well. They don't mix well.


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[82boy]

Just remember that Graphite is hygroscopic and could conceivably promote rust in the barrel.

Well, I have to totally disagree with this statement.

Many Benchrest shooters use Lock ease in their barrels, and to this day there is not a single reported case of it causing rust in a barrel. Renowned Gunsmith and top shooter Thomas "Speedy" Gonzales, and the worlds greatest Benchrest shooter Tony Boyer, Highly recommend the use of Lock ease in barrels. Every single barrel chambered at Kelbly's get a treatment of straight conidial Graphite before it goes out the door. Stan Buctal and George Kelbly was using conidial Graphite since the early 1980's. Gre-tan Rifles sells, and Highly recommends use of conidial Graphite, and uses it on all barrels they chamber. If it even had a slight chance of harming a barrel I guarantee none of these people would associate their name with it. I use it on all my barrels and even store my barrels with it in it, and can say I have never seen ANY rust caused by it. I treat my barrels with straight conidial Graphite before any of them are shot. I have shot in snow, heavy rain, traveled to area's with high levels of humidity, and everything else in between and have never once seen the slightest hint of rust. My best and most prized barrel was chambered in 1995, and it has had a treatment of conidial Graphite in it ever since. It has been through it all, and it is fine.

Going back to the OPs question, shoot until accuracy falls off, and then clean, what ever that round count is. I have found that majority of Savage barrel shoot best when they are dirty, and I don't clean them until accuracy falls off, which is usually around 50 to as much as 100 rounds. From my experience it is fairly common for a Savage barrel to group erratic until it gets about 10 to 15 rounds down the tube after cleaning.

Another option is to use Moly coating on your bullets. Many long range Benchrest shooters use moly so that they don't have to clean their barrels as much. With Moly coating I can go 100 to 200 rounds without cleaning. (WARNING DO NOT USE conidial Graphite WITH THE USE OF MOLY, it make things too slick, and you will have extreme speeds, and bullets not making the trip.) There is a few people out there that claim that Moly is hygroscopic and I call BS on that too. Between Berger, Sierra, Nosler, Remington, Hornady and other bullet makers, I would say it is safe to bet that there has been a few Billion moly coated bullets sold. Not including all the bullets that people have self coated, I would say that through out the years there has been a few hundred billion moly coated bullets that have gone down range, and if you look on the net there is only a handful of alleged cases of moly causing problem, and out of them I have yet to see one that had any hard core proof. There is an article by Varmint al that makes claims of a test of moly, but I would argue that one the test was not scientific because there was no control, and second he did not prove that his results was repeatable, So his test are skewed, and people take it as gospel. I have never heard of a bullet maker that has replaced a barrel due to moly use. I say that if someone did have a corrosion problem I was caused by something else besides moly. Again I have several barrels that have only had moly shot out of them, they have been stored with moly in them. They have been shot in snow, rain, High humidity, and everything else, and there is nothing remotely wrong with these barrels. I also know many shooters that have done the same things, and come to the same conclusion.

[thomae]

Please understand that I am not trolling, and I will not get into a duscussion or argument about what has or has not occurred with my rifles, your rifles or anyone else's rifles.

Nor am I saying that there are not graphite-based products and moly-based products out there that work well in firearms applications.
I am also not trying to suggest that any particular product has corroded any particular firearm.

I am neither stating nor trying to infer that using graphite or moly products is inappropriate for an individual and their rifle or firearm.

However, I am of the opinion that the scientific facts about elements and compounds do not change based upon (either good or bad - take your pick) anecdotal experience.

Graphite absorbs water.
Based on its molecular structure and its electrical conductivity, graphite has a tendency to facilitate pitting corrosion in some stainless steel and to promote galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals. It is also corrosive to aluminum in the presence of moisture. For this reason the US Air Force banned its use as a lubricant in aluminum aircraft, and discouraged its use in aluminum-containing automatic weapons.

Moly (molybdenum disulfide[or disluphide]) can also be corrosive in a wet environment due to its sulfur content and the resulting electrolytical corrosion caused by oxidation/reduction of the molecular molybdenum and sulfur.
In a humid/wet environment molybdenum disulfide supports galvanic corrosion by acting as a cathode, while the metal it is coating acts as an anode during the galvanic corrosion process.

Conclusion: I am not suggesting that these two compounds are unsuitable for use in firearms, nor am I suggesting that any one person's firearm has been damaged by the use of these lubricants, but rather, I am simply trying to make the reader aware of some of the properties of these lubricants. In doing so, I would remind the reader that the chemical and electrical properties of these two chemicals are such that they do have possible shortcomings and must be used appropriately.


Primary and secondary references:



Simpkins, J.E., Strehlow, R.A., Mioduszewski, P.K., Uckan, T., 1988, OSTI ID: 7078653; Legacy ID: DE89002200, Control of water absorption by purification of graphite, http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/7078653-0Hs2jc/
Galvanic Corrosion (http://steel.keytometals.com/Articles/Art160.htm). keytometals.com
"ASM Tech Notes – TN7-0506 – Galvanic Corrosion" (http://web.archive.org/web/20090227143601/http://metals.lincdigital.com.au/files/ASM_Tech_Notes/TN7-0506-Galvanic%20Corrosion.pdf). Atlas Specialty Metals.
Jones, Rick (USAF-Retired) Better Lubricants than Graphite (http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/lubricants.html). graflex.org
"Weapons Lubricant in the Desert" (http://web.archive.org/web/20071015045426/http://gojackarmy.blogspot.com/2005/09/weapons-lubricant-in-desert.html). September 16, 2005. Retrieved 2009-06-06
Wet versus Dry Lubrication for Firearms (http://www.whitesounddefense.com/pages/Wet-Versus-Dry-Lubrication-For-Firearms.html)
Molybdenum disulfide lubricants (http://www.bearingtechnology.nl/page23.html).
Wikipedia, various.



By the way, I believe the term is "colloidal" graphite.

[yobuck]

after reading these post today i called an old friend who had for many years been a top shelf williamsport competitor.
he of coarse knew all the record holding shooters over the many years he shot there.
he knew of no one ever using graphite or lock ease on their barrels.
i also intend asking bruce baer who was also a competetor/ gunsmith who built numerous record holding guns for those shooters.
moly seems to be something used by very few shooters there.
cleaning is an issue unto itself and can cause heated debates.
a few years back there was an in depth article in precision shooting magazine on the subject of cleaning.
it took the author 2 years to complete due to the ammount of products involved.
just when he thought he was finished along came another.
he names names of products like hoppes, sweets, and lots of others he deemed as useless for cleaning gun barrels of copper.
there was only 1 he thought usefull and that is bore tech eliminator.
he stated the only true way of determining a clean barrel was with a bore scope used by a person knowing how to look for problems.
i got the impression that would rule out most of us.
i still have the article and would be glad to furnish a copy for print here.

[kenickie22]

yobuck, please put the article on here. I'm very interested in finding a better cleaning method. Thanks.

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[WYcoyote]

I just applied this to 5 rifles after researching it for a while. Although I can't review it personally yet it might be what you are looking for.

Dyna Bore Coat

http://www.extremeguncare.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2

+1 for Bore Tech Eliminator

[langenc]

Not to gum things up but just use Gunzilla-water based. No pet distillates and no stink from em.

[JCalhoun]

I normally clean my competition rifles at 700 to 800 rounds. The hunting rifles get before and after season and the mil-surps get once a year.