.223 or .22-250

[bootsmcguire]

Ahh ok, you were using available data in a loading manual to base your statement. Gotcha.

Just checked a couple of my books, and they have data for the 80gr bullets but not the 90's. IIRC the Sierra Manual has data for the 90's in 22-250, but I could be mistaken.

[wbm]

Have a friend that shoots 80gr SMK's in a 1-8 Twist 22-250. In order to use a 90gr in a 223 you would have to have a faster twist rate than 1-9. Also the 90gr will take up a LOT more space in the 223 case than in the 22-250.

[CharlieNC]

I have both 22-250 and 223, and the 223 is cheaper and just more fun to shoot. At my 300yd range I love busting the steel while watching it swing through the scope due to minimal recoil. The 22-250 doesn't have enough recoil to bother you either, but there's just something special about the 223 that just makes it plain more fun. Still no problem getting good, cheap once-fired military brass. Don't know for sure, but it seems like it's easier to find fast twist 223's vs 22-250's in order to shoot heavier bullets; plan on trying my hand at F/TR soon so the heavies will come in handy.

[Willoughby]

Quote (Ahh ok, you were using available data in a loading manual to base your statement. Gotcha)
its available if you want to look it up
hogden list 70 gr as the heaviest for 22-250
besides its common knowledge to those who regularly look a reloading data
its also common knowledge to those who regularly look a reloading data
that the powder charge decreases as projectile weight increases
that's the most likely cause for 223 being able to shoot heavier projectiles
I guess you could shoot a 22-250 with 50% -75% fill with heavies

[wbm]

hogden list 70 gr as the heaviest for 22-250

Sierra V Manual: 80gr Sierra Match King 36.6 IMR-4831 @ 3050fps.


its also common knowledge to those who regularly look a reloading data
that the powder charge decreases as projectile weight increases

Shazaaam! Who knew?

[bootsmcguire]

its also common knowledge to those who regularly look a reloading data
that the powder charge decreases as projectile weight increases
that's the most likely cause for 223 being able to shoot heavier projectiles
I guess you could shoot a 22-250 with 50% -75% fill with heavies


So what your saying then is its "common knowledge" that a smaller case will shoot a heavier bullet better because less powder is required for a heavier bullet in a given diameter. So by that logic then for another example, a 30 carbine or a 30BR would be better choices to shoot a 240gr .308" bullet then say a 300 Win Mag because they hold less powder? I can't say I know of too many people who use a 30 carbine or 30BR to launch bullets in the 240gr class as effectively as a 300WM could or even a 30-06 for that matter.


I guess you could shoot a 22-250 with 50% -75% fill with heavies
Why would you need to only fill the case 75%? Why not just go with a slower powder? The rule of thumb for top velocities is to use the fastest powder that you can fill the case with without going over pressure. So if your chosen powder is at its max pressure limit and there is empty room in the case, then moving to a slower powder should allow you to gain some speed and consistency.


All things being equal but the chamber, then why can the smaller case work with heavier bullets and the larger case can't?
As I said above "All things being equal but the chamber....". If a 22-250 has a 12" twist barrel (which I would agree is probably the most common for the 22-250) then to have a fair comparision to keep "all things equal" then you must compare it to a 223 that has a 1-12" twist, and a 223 with a 12" twist isn't going to shoot a 90gr either. Now if you want to say that a 7" twist 223 can shoot a 90gr bullet but a 12" 22-250 can't, then that's fine, but with both having a 7" twist, the 22-250 will win in the speed department every time because you can put more powder behind it.

Otherwise nobody would ever build wildcats like for example: The 22-6mm-AI using a 7" twist barrel has been reported to shoot the 80gr A-Max at upwards of 3600fps. People have built these for shooting out to 1k, and reportedly they seem to do well. Now this case is to the 22-250 what the 22-250 is to the 223. By your above logic, the 22-250 should outperform the 22-6mm-AI and the 223 should outperform them both with 90gr bullets.

I will say that factory rifles in .224 bores are way more likely to have 223's with very fast twists (say 1-7") than 22-250's. Most 22-250's are going to be 9", 12", or 14" twists. With that said most of the available data is going to conform to the masses first, so there will be more published data for the 80gr and up bullets for the 223 cartridge because the factory made rifles are more prevalent. But to say that the 22-250 can't do it at all, (not even getting into the fact the bigger case will hold more powder and make more speed) just doesn't make sense.

http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx111/bootsmcguire/ICONS%20and%20Forum%20Stuff/peep_zps75878e81.gif (http://s747.photobucket.com/user/bootsmcguire/media/ICONS%20and%20Forum%20Stuff/peep_zps75878e81.gif.html)

[wbm]

Well said sir!

[yobuck]

mechanics no doubt spend much of their time (and our money)going back to their tool boxes looking for
the right size wrench. i wonder why when an adjustable would fit most situations?
could it be because they just like owning wrenches?

[thomae]

So what your saying then is its "common knowledge" that a smaller case will shoot a heavier bullet better (emphasis mine)Although Willoughby's logic may be faulty, I don't believe he said that it would shoot BETTER.

[bootsmcguire]

Although Willoughby's logic may be faulty, I don't believe he said that it would shoot BETTER.

Perhaps you are right. I suppose that the word "ability" to me implied the lack of ability towards anything else, per the quote below:


90 % of the velocity
for 1/2 the powder
and the ability to bigger projectiles

And the quote below here to me seemed to confirm my assumed implication, so....


its also common knowledge to those who regularly look a reloading data
that the powder charge decreases as projectile weight increases
that's the most likely cause for 223 being able to shoot heavier projectiles
I guess you could shoot a 22-250 with 50% -75% fill with heavies

.....perhaps I just read too much into it. It just seemed to me that the tone of the conversation was that the 223 can and the 22-250 can't. I'm not wanting to seem upset or trying to pick on anyone (hence my ducking behind the couch), just wanting to keep the information correct. I'll shut up now in the interest of keeping ripples off the pond. Willoughby, wasn't trying to pick on ya man, just what was said didn't make sense to me.

[thomae]

Got it.
It's very hard for anyone (including moderators) to read tone of voice, inflection, body language from the written word.

...FWIW, I always thought that the amount of powder was reduced for heavier projectiles in order to keep the pressure from exceeding the max.

[bootsmcguire]

Got it.
It's very hard for anyone (including moderators) to read tone of voice, inflection, body language from the written word.
Totally understandable, not trying to start a riot, just trying to keep facts straight. And tone is hard to determine, and I am sorry if mine come off as hostile, was merely trying to orchestrate a discussion and nothing more.


...FWIW, I always thought that the amount of powder was reduced for heavier projectiles in order to keep the pressure from exceeding the max.

It is, within a given case.

A 223 shooting a 90gr will use less of a given powder than it would to shoot say a 55gr. However going to smaller case does not make it easier or better to shoot a heavier bullet because of less powder. Less powder for a heavier bullet is only relative to a given case. Going to a bigger case just allows you to stuff more powder behind the same sized bullet to gain more velocity.

Ok, now I will shut up.;)

[thomae]

Less powder for a heavier bullet is only relative to a given case. Yup...I guess I could have mentioned that...but you did, so that's good.

Please don't shut up. You add a lot to these discussions.

[bootsmcguire]

Please don't shut up. You add a lot to these discussions.

Well if you insist. http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx111/bootsmcguire/ICONS%20and%20Forum%20Stuff/thumb_zps1839369f.gif (http://s747.photobucket.com/user/bootsmcguire/media/ICONS%20and%20Forum%20Stuff/thumb_zps1839369f.gif.html);)

[Westcliffe01]

Honestly, it is a pity that few manufacturers have been configuring the 22-250 to handle heavier bullets. With a typical 223 you can go out to 75gr but after that they are rapidly going slower and slower and the trajectory is anything but flat. With the 308 parent case, a 22-250 has a lot more powder capacity, but is matched to barrels that typically can't stabilize the heavier bullets. Being able to shoot a 75 or 80gr VLD with a good turn of speed makes for a much more capable weapon when the wind is blowing. Today you need to look at a 6BR or 6XC or a 22BR shooting an 80gr SMK at 3150fps. My 223 shooting the Hornady 75gr boat tail bullet is closer to 2700fps, and while it is much better into the wind than a 55gr Vmax and has more terminal energy, it also has a longer time of flight and a lot more bullet drop in the initial 250 yards.

[junkman1967]

ID like to load 55g bullets for both rifles 22-250 1:12 twist and 223 1:9 twist and use Varget. I just wanted to ask all of your opinions on that. :) Guns will be used mostly for PD, and coyotes. Thanks

Joe

[Westcliffe01]

About 2.5 years ago, I started working to cut down the coyote population on the sheep farm, where the pic above was taken. It seemed common knowledge at the time that you needed a 223 and possibly a shotgun as backup. Having done some research, I had heard about the Savage 24 which was a shotgun/rifle combination. I got one in 222 Rem and 20ga and thought I was all set. Based on all the stories I heard, I was expecting close quarters action, so I put a 2-7 scope on it. The problem was that I and the coyotes had not been reading the same book or web articles.

Whenever one showed up it was at 250 yards Min out to 450 yards. Its open country and I am not the smallest guy you have ever seen, so I found that trying to enter the property during the day was a bust, they would see me when I tried to open the paddock gate and then the gig was up. So I changed my strategy. I snuck in under cover of darkness, set up on high ground and then remained motionless except for scanning front and back. When they would show up, it was again a minimum distance of 250 yards. I was indeed shooting 55gr Vmax from that rifle but I could never seem to hit anything. So I figured that instead of the light barreled 24, I needed some heavier metal, so I got a Rem 700 SPS 26" barreled 223. After a bit of sorting I had it shooting 1/2MOA and had some hot 55gr Vmax loads for it too. It was a 12 twist and 55gr was about as heavy as I could go with it. So now I had a super reliable 0.5moa gun, rather badly balanced because of the featherweight stock and heavy barreled front end. I shot coyotes with it at 250 yards that ran over 100 yards out the property and onto neighboring land that I may not enter before expiring. I also missed several times at 300 yards and beyond. Frustrated by the miss rate, I put up large targets int he field and shot at them in representative conditions. I was fairly astonished that the 55gr bullets were blown off course by over 24" in a light wind.

That was the point that I started to figure out that there are things that can be done to reduce wind drift, and bullet choice needs to be made not by hype or popularity but by BC. Basically, the higher the BC that you can manage the better. So I already knew I couldn't go heavier in the Rem 700 SPS with 1:12 twist rate. So I started looking at factory rifles and very few had twist rates for stabilizing high BC bullets other than AR-15's with their 1:7. But I didn't like the AR-15 and that was anyway an expensive option and I'm limited to 5 rounds anyway. So I discovered the Savage 10 PC. 1:9.25 barrel, 20" long so not awkward like the Rem 700 SPS. And it so happened there was one listed on the MGO forum for $550, so I made it mine. I remember the first time on the range, late winter, snow falling and freezing. I was the only shooter with the 2 DNR range officers huddling in their lookout tower. I got a box of 75gr Hornady Superformance Match ammo and let some fly. The first group after sighting in the scope was 1/2". So clearly it shot the 75gr ammo fine and its wind drift was half of the 55gr Vmax and at about 350 yards the retained energy was double that of the Vmax too.

But the trajectory was NOT flat. Due to the coyotes always showing up at 250 yards, I had it zeroed at that range and suddenly one pops up at 130 yards. I thought I could not miss. Well, I missed twice! Turns out that with a 250 yard zero the bullet is about 3.5" high at 130 yards. The next morning the coyote made the fatal mistake of showing up again and this time I knew how much to hold low and it got drilled with the 75gr match bullet. Exit wound was 2" in diameter on the opposite shoulder. My scope was a Nikon Monarch and I was frustrated with the simplistic reticle so I had a custom elevation turret made for it to suit that particular load and now I only have to dial the distance. In the last 2 weeks I have had 3 new shooters shoot that rifle/scope at the steel targets and all of them not only hit the 160 and 300 yard targets first time, but generally grouped better than 4" at 300 yards too.

Chasing the high BC train a bit more, took me to the 243 Win. Looked around and got a Savage 12 LPV in stainless for $770. It too had a 26" barrel, 1:9.25 twist. I shot 95gr Superformance SST's out of it and it killed coyotes stone dead, but I knew it could be better, so I got my first match barrel ever, a shilen 1:8 26" varmint barrel. That one happened to have an Ackley chamber so there is quite a bit more work involved in the brass prep. I found a good fireforming load with 41gr of H100V and a 95gr Berger VLD. Man, this rifle was now smoking, even with a fireforming load. Accuracy was improved too. Finally after enough fireforming "practice" I had enough cases to start working on 105gr VLD loads. I also got a Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16x50 scope for it. I love having a reticle where the subtentions stay the same regardless of where the zoom ring is at, although in truth it is mostly from 8-16.

When I went out recently with a former college from germany who had never fired a gun, he shot the 223 first and after that the 243. The 243 is of course a lot heavier but the recoil is of course very modest so it tends only to be intimidating to carry. It was making deeper craters in my steel plates than my 308 which is shooting 185gr Bergers or 175gr SMK's.

So if I was to start all over again, it would be with the 243. A coyote has a considerably poorer change of escaping a 95gr or 105gr VLD that has minimal wind drift and is not bleeding off energy fast, compared to a lazy 75gr 223 or (by 250 yards) an even lazier 55gr Vmax.

So don't believe everything you see in the videos or read on forums. Perhaps in the western US where the coyotes are a lot more aggressive and pressurized for food and territory, one can get them in 223 range much easier. But I have also seen miss after miss from the guys with the fancy AR's and red dot sights. I now go out more than 20 days at a time without ever seeing a coyote. They have never come to a call, period. But the sheep farmer is pleased. His losses are down to nearly nothing now..

[Rooster 50]

Have a heavy barrel Savage in 22-250 and shoot the 68gr Hornady match bullet in it. With Superformance powder it is SMOKIN! and a heck of a lot of fun to shoot way out there.

What twist is your 22-250?

[junkman1967]

Out here where I hunt I would say the longest shot Im going to take is 200yds, due to the terrain. If I wanted to go out much further I would go to one of my 308 rifles. Great info though, very good read

Joe

[bootsmcguire]

junkman, varget is my go-to powder for the 22-250, and has served me very well in 223. If your rifles don't seem to like it try RL15. It seems in my experience with these rounds, that they always seem to like 1 or the other. Your twists you mentioned should serve you well for the 55gr bullets. FWIW, my 2 favorite 55gr .224 bullets are the Hornady V-Max and the Sierra Spitzer.

Westcliffe01, the parent case for the 22-250 is not the 308 but rather the 250-3000 Savage round. Good reads above. It can be helpful to see how one got here from there. I too am a big fan of the 243 and 243AI. If you get real bored try a 6mm-WSM. 105's flying at 3650fps is like a laser.