Savage Palma Set Up

[phil357]

I was wondering what set up is working best with the Savage. I have a FT/R and want to add Target Sights for Palma.

Thanks,

Phil

[jeffjmr]

Me, too. Any suggestions?

Jeff

[sinman]

Ive made barrels and have machined the ends to fit front sights on. Its pretty easy to do but the high end sights aren't the cheapest.

[memilanuk]

You have basically two options for front sights - have a gunsmith install a dove-tail mount (involves drilling and tapping the holes for the screws), or have a gunsmith turn a tenon on the end of the barrel for a barrel band type front sight (most common on modern iron-sight target rifles).

Neither is without its draw backs. The dovetail is quick and simple, but has two problems: one, if you ever remove the barrel, you have to reinstall it to the *exact* same alignment or the sights will be off for windage, and two, since the front sight has no height adjustment, you end up having to do all your elevation adjustment with the rear sight. It'll work, and thats the way it was done for years and years, but the modern ladder sight where the coarse elevation adjustment is done with the front sight (usually has notches in anywhere from 3-6 moa increments depending on the brand/model) and the remaining adjustment is done with the rears sight allows you to have a consistent head position behind the rear sight from 100 to 1000yds and not have to move your head up and down to align your eye with the rear sight aperature as you change yardage. An adjustable cheekpiece can help with that, but its still sub-optimal.

The ladder front sight as made by RPA, Riles, Porter, Stallings, Centra, etc. requires a barrel tenon be turned on the muzzle end of the barrel, usually 0.750" in diameter, 1.5-2" long. This works fine on barrels contoured appropriately to start with, but on an F/TR barrel which measures close to 1.000" at the muzzle its going to start looking kind of odd for starters, and there may be concerns about relieving too much material too fast and causing dimensional changes inside the bore as stress is relieved, etc. Given that the muzzle where the bullet is exiting the barrel is *not* a place you want a 'loose' spot, this can be a real concern for accuracy. A good gunsmith that is aware of the consequences can remove the material slowly and minimize any problems. You can get special-order bases for some brands of front sights that are made for larger muzzle diameters (0.812" is relatively easy to find, but 0.750" remains the defacto standard) so you wouldn't have to relieve as much material. I actually have a barrel (F-Class 6.5-284) at a gunsmith right now being turned down for an Any/Iron / Any/Any barrel, so I'll let you know how it goes ;) The only problem with going with a bigger base (besides finding the parts and restricted selection) is that then you are basically 'wed' to that oddball size and may have to eat that investment later when you go with a mainstream 0.750" muzzle tenon on your next barrel.

For just getting your feet wet, the dove tail and a simple front sight tunnel from Champion's Choice or Creedmoor Sports will probably be simplest/easiest and not waste too much money if you decide Palma isn't your cup of tea.

For rear sights... you can try fiddling around putting a Lipski adapter on a regular Weaver/Picatinny scope base or rail, and mounting the rear sight to that... but it will most likely be too tall (the adapter was really intended more for putting a regular rear sight on flat top ARs back before rear sights were available that clamped directly to the rail - and the height of the sights over the bore on an AR or tube gun is very different than on a conventionally stocked bolt gun). You'll need to have your gunsmith drill-n-tap the receiver (and possibly relieve a bit of wood) for a mounting plate. They are available in various sizes from Champions Choice, and it appears that Remington Winchester and Savage actions share a fairly common receiver diameter so the radiused portion of the base seems to fit both my earlier Remington guns and my newer Savage rifles.

This is what a .590" height base looks like on a 12 Palma with a NF 20 MOA rail installed:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/milanuk/gun_stuff/firearms/Savage%20Palma%20Rifle/IMG_0002_2.jpg

Same base with a PNW rear sight mounted. In all honesty, I think a .490 base would work just fine and get the sight up more in to the middle of its travel. In your case, getting the rear sight and the front sight close to the same height while leaving adequate room for adjustment for long range will be more interesting, assuming you go with a fixed dove tail front sight mount.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/milanuk/gun_stuff/firearms/Savage%20Palma%20Rifle/IMG_0004.jpg

Enjoy,

Monte

[northlander]

Here is a company that I have heard very good things about - Phoenix Precision:

Rear Sights - http://www.phoenixprec.com/target-rifle-rear-sights.htm

Front Sight - http://www.phoenixprec.com/target-rifle-front-sights.htm

I do not offer these but I have heard very good things about their quality and repeatability.

Jim Briggs
NSS

[memilanuk]

I've got a Phoenix Precision rear sight on my Match Rifle spacegun - it does work pretty slick.

Looking at the front sights, the one you'd want is the 'Long Range Front Sight' i.e. the short one on the right, made for conventional bolt guns.

The nice thing is that they do offer a variety of sizes of bases - 0.750, 0.812, or even 0.920", so you might not need to take the muzzle down so far on a factory F/TR barrel, and then all you'd need is to buy a new base when you get a new barrel (assuming you went with a regular medium Palma contour, instead of the 1" F/TR contour which is heavier even than a 'heavy' Palma contour).

[Eric in NC]

Lipski also makes a clamp on front base with adjustable elevation (largest is .92" I think). Isn't as easy to adjust as the Phoenix looks (haven't used a Phoenix - but they sure do look slick). The Lipski is rock solid though and easy to remove when you change barrels etc.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7919/Product/COMPETITION_BARREL_BAND

[memilanuk]

IIRC, the Lipski front doesn't have any notches for adjusting elevation during a match - its more of an 'adjust it once, loctite it and leave it' sort of arrangement. Its also most likely too high for a conventional bolt gun as its intended for flat top ARs - if you look at the Phoenix Precision front sight (the one on the right), picture that sight tunnel dang near sitting on top of the barrel - thats how low they go for 1000yds. All the way at the top is 100yds.

[jeffjmr]

If I may pick your brain without hijacking the thread....

I just ordered a 12 Palma. Savage says the action is drilled and tapped for scope. Does that mean I must yet drill and tap for rear iron sights?

And do you happen to know the dimensions of the front tenon on the 12 Palma? I intend to set mine up for both Palma and F-class with a scope.

I know nothing about high-end iron sights beyond my M1A and Garand match sights. Any pointers? The manufacturers mentioned in posts above all look OK to me. Can't really tell the fine points without seeing them in person. I would obviously be opting for a tenon mounted front sight so it could be removed for scope use.

Anything else I should know about?

Thanks.
Jeff

[memilanuk]

The 12 Palma comes drilled and tapped for scope mounts, like pretty much any Savage centerfire action these days. In addition, it has two holes drilled on the left side of the action at the center line of the action for a rear sight base, and the stock relieved slightly to accomodate. This picture may give a better idea of how these holes are laid out:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/milanuk/gun_stuff/firearms/Savage%20Palma%20Rifle/IMG_0001_2.jpg

The front sight tenon is a fairly standard 0.750" diameter. With a split-block barrel mount like the Phoenix Precision front sight mentioned earlier uses, it doesn't matter much if the tenon is a little on the 'plus' side - it'll just be an extra snug fit. Other styles of front sights use a locator ring that mounts semi-permanently to the barrel tenon and they tend to be a very close fit. With the locator rings the idea is that you leave the ring in place, and remove the front sight ladder and tunnel when putting the gun in the case (RPA is a good example of this, and the new Centra Goliath sight uses a similar ring). The ring has a small 'tit' or nub on it that is used to align the front sight when reinstalling it, making it pretty much goof proof. With a side-mounted front 'ladder' like the Phoenix Precision sight (and Riles, and Porter, and RightSight, etc.) use you just remove the locking screw and pull off the ladder/tunnel, leaving the whole base in place.

If money was no object... Warner Tool Co. arguably makes the best rear sights (and some of the most expensive), and the RightSight from Stallings Machine is the front sight to match. The Warner sight can be had in a couple different thread pitches, and also different directions of movement. Several of the other brands of rear sights also offer the different movements - i.e. one style you turn the knobs one way to go left or right, like a scope turret. The other style goes the opposite direction, like American service rifle sights. (as an aside, watching a Service Rifle shooter their first time out with a match rifle rear sight can be entertaining... sad, but entertaining ;) ). After that... PNW, Phoenix Precision, etc. are all decent rear sights. RPA Trakker rear sights used to be pretty economical, but with the USD vs. the Euro, most Brit stuff is priced out of line with its value here stateside. Phoenix, Riles, Porter, Centra all make pretty good front sights.

Things to remember... after buying the front and rear sights, then you have to pay for front and rear *aperatures*. A basic adjustable rear aperature from Gehmann or Centra will work fine for most purposes. The bigger more complex units with filters, diopter lenses, etc. are intended more for Air Rifle and Smallbore, and while some people like them, they have a reputation for not holding up under sustained recoil from a .308 Win, being designed for rimfire, etc. Fewer moving parts are your friend! The very basic front sights like the Tompkins front sight that mounts on a simple dove tail base still takes the old-fashioned metallic insert aperatures. Pretty much everybody else has moved to screw in adjustable aperatures. They come in a variety of sizes (and shapes - square or round aperatures are available, even triangular if you look really hard) - and you can get ones with horizontal cross-bars, horizontal and vertical cross-bars, or no crossbars (just lenses). Add to that little shade tubes (to keep sun glare or rain droplets off those lenses), and magnifying lenses at the front (or the rear, but not both) and the whole thing gets a bit complex. And just to make things interesting... the click values are dependent on the sight radius; most rear sights are set up (thread pitch) for a 30" sight radius, but once you throw in a 30" barrel plus the length of the receiver... the sight radius is closer to 36", and 1/4 moa clicks now become 1/5 moa...

It is truly amazing how well you can see with a proper iron sight set up - especially with a magnifying 0.5 diopter lens in the front aperature: I can literally see the (white) spotter on the (black) target bull, even at 1000yds (just barely, and its a pin-prick, but I can see it) and I don't have especially good eyesight. A good set of front and rear sights with adjustable aperatures can set you back a chunk of change, and top of the line components start to rival a Nightforce scope in cost. From time to time I see rifles from some places (like Fulton Armory) that use a Lyman 93 rear sight with a real basic aperature in the rear, and a basic front sight like the Tompkins on a dove tail mount (like the Lipski, for an AR). I'd say thats about the bargain-basement version - kind of like a SuperSniper scope - probably works just fine as long as you recognize and work within its limits. I'm actually planning on something like that for a rimfire trainer, but I'm just not sure I would trust it for long range work.

[jeffjmr]

That's a lot of help Monte, thanks.

Could you elaborate on the pros and cons of the variations in front sight sizes (18mm vs 22mm) and aperture sizes? Is there a rule of thumb based on the distances you intend to shoot or is it all personal preference? And no crossbars seems to be a logical choice. What am I missing?

You had mentioned earlier a .490 base for the Palma rear. I did not see such a choice on the Champion's Choice website. I think for 600 yards + the taller rear you are using would help keep you from having to adjust your cheekpiece as much.

So much to learn. But buying sights unseen seems like a tall order. There is a sight specialist at our local gun shows. Hopefully I can see some of these up close next time around.

Thanks again.
Jeff

[memilanuk]

18mm sights were the standard for a long time... then 22mm started becoming more popular. The 30mm sights came out something like 8-10 years ago, and more and more top shooters are going that route. One of the big benefits is being able to see the number boards through your sight - thus less chance of lining up on the wrong target and cross-firing. Otherwise... everybody who has them claims they are easier on the eyes; how that works I don't honestly know. Lens and aperture selection is much more limited, but what is out there is pretty high quality - and expensive. You might be able to find some 22mm sight parts from someone upgrading to 30mm. I don't know that 30mm is necessarily needed or beneficial for the new shooter, but I think 18mm would probably be a waste of time/money.

The sights with no crossbars have a plastic lens system inside the front sight housing; these lenses can collect dirt/dust, vaporized water when shooting in the rain, or even a slight glare if the sun angle is bad. The cross-bar systems are fairly simple and water/dirt/glare are a non-issue. Most of the apertures I use now have the 'floating ring' with no bars; I just use anti-glare tubes and covers over the ends to keep foreign material out when storing them.

The bigger issue is getting an aperture that is the right size range. There is a formula for figuring out the (roughly) right size based on the target (black bull) size, sight radius, and some other parameters, but it's still comes down to what 'looks right' for you. If you add a diopter lens (aka 'Eagle Eye', available in 0.3 and 0.5 strengths) it magnifies the target image that you see in the ring, meaning you need a bigger aperture than you would otherwise. You want to be able to open up that front aperture; a tight line of white around the black sounds great, but is actually counter productive and doesn't allow your eye to center things as well as a big ring of white does. Somewhere I have the formula in a book; I'll see if I can translate it in a manner to make sense in an online forum. It's probably been discussed a time or three over on the Long Range forums on usrifleteams.com, though. Lots of good info in the archives there, and people who know loads more about sights than I do.

The Champion's Choice mounts and bases are on their own page separate from the sights... here (http://www.champchoice.com/cat-Mounts,_Rings_and_Bases-694.aspx).

Another option is a combination scope rail and rear sight base. Warner Tool makes one (very nice, but pricey), and Satern Custom Machining makes another one (light weight aluminum). It's an attractive all-in-one solution, if everything lines up right.

[memilanuk]

Bingo. Found it ;)

Aperature.pdf (http://www.northfloridashooting.com/Misc/Aperture.pdf)

Probably way more detail than most people want, but good stuff to save to the ole' hard drive for future reference!

[jeffjmr]

No such thing as too much detail!

Monte, you have been extremely generous with your time. I consider myself in your debt.

Cheers,
Jeff