New 10/110 .308 Blues

[NorcalShooter]

Hello

I have some questions about a .308 SA 10/110 that I bought last summer.

After considerable research, I decided on the above gun for accuracy, quality, and price. Everyone described it as a tack driver. I have not done much rifle shooting since the 70s. I actually bought a combo--it included a Nikon Prostaff 3x9. I finally decided that the included scope mounts did not hold well so I bought a Game Reaper and a good torgue wrench. Some time after that my GF decided that she wanted a rifle so she ordered a Lady Hunter in a .308. I decided to give her the Nikon Prostaff and I went out and bought a Leupold VX3 in a 4x14. Also, I bought an Apex in a .308 for my son this last Christmas and he mounted a 3x9 Vortex on it.

I originally had the idea of beginning the site-in process using Sierra Match in a 168 grain. I don't know if this was a good idea or not but I knew that it was an accurate round and at least I could get the windage right before picking a hunting round. I got my rifle sited in pretty well but not perfect. (This is all occurring over months due to time constraints.)

I then helped my son get his sited in pretty close in one short afternoon of shooting it. I had no problem getting 1 inch groups. And, I got my GFs sited in and on good days have no problem getting 5/8" groups (100 yards). I was previously getting 5/8" groups with my 10/110 but still felt like it needed some windage dialing in before moving to a hunting round. The problem is that in SF Bay area ammo is depleted. I can't get any more match ammo.

I tried shooting 150 Fusion out of mine and I am lucky to get 4" groups. I spoke with a gentleman and he said that the 1/10 twist barrels on the 10/110 savages like a heavier round and he had problems with 150s on his .308 10/110 also. I have also read that some barrels simply prefer certian rounds. He recommended going up to a 165, 175, or better yet a 180.


The problem is that I used all of my Sierra match 168 on my GF and sons rifle. So I decided to try some hunting rounds. I have to say that after today’s time at the range that I am discouraged and confused. I was only able to find one box of Federal Vital-Shock 180 Nosier Partition, and once box of 180 Fusion.

First, both rounds shot 4 to 6 inches right of center and had huge groups. This was alarming to me because I decided on the Leupold VX3 primarily because of its reputation to hold zero. I had it hitting tight groups with the Sierra Match previously and possible 1/4 to 1/2 inch to the right and dead on at 2.1 inches above zero at 100 yards to accomplish a 200 yard zero. So now all of a sudden I am shooting way right and way high with both 180 rounds. What bothers me is that scope has not been bumped at all. And, I am an inspector and technician in a very technical mechanical field and when I torqued that mount I did it perfectly. I write and follow mechanical instructions for a living.

Reluctantly, I dailed my windage and elevation to compensate. What followed was very odd. The 180 Vital shock hit high and to the left. The Fusion hit low and to the right. This after about 10 rounds for each. I also cleaned the barrel after 10 rounds or so. For both of the rounds I was looking at 4 to 5 inch groups. I am just getting back into shooting but I know when I am seeing the shot and when I am not. I know I was on the mark. I was not rushed at all.

I am lost. I suppose that I could have a defective scope. It would be the most likely culprit due to the windage adjustments that I had to make. I totally trust the mounts and how I mounted them. If I assume that I do not have a defective scope then that leaves me with: Bad ammo, or my rifle only likes a very narrow grain range around 168 grains, or--I wonder--is it possible that I have a bad barrel?

I feel if I could get my hands on some 168 Sierra that I could sort out the scope issue. I had great results initially with that round.

If I could even get a hold of some hunting rounds in 165 or 175 I may be able to learn something.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Do these rifles have a reputation for having a narrow grain range for accuracy? Am I expecting too much from the weapon to think I can shoot a 180 and say a 165 out of it?

Does anyone agree that these barrels do not handle 150 rounds very well?

Is it possible to have a bad barrel? I don't know anything about that and thus my question.

I obviously have to sort this out before going hunting, and that will be delayed now. I am honestly so frustrated that I am ready to get rid of it and spend more money and get something else in another brand.

Did I go too cheap on this rifle and did I expect too much out of it?

I am open and hope to hear any and all thoughts.

Thank you

[stomp442]

You should be able to shoot the 150s thru 200 grain bullets equally well out of that rifle. The point of impact change is probably due to a combination of bullet weight, velocity and barrel harmonics but could also be any number of things. Check your action screws and your mounts and scope screws. Also check to make sure that your barrel is not touching the stock and that the tang is free floated as well.

A rifle is much like a fine musical instrument and needs to be tuned. Hand loading is the best way to achieve this to find the correct burn rate powder and velocity to achieve the same barrel harmonics from shot to shot with any given bullet. A slight change in any of these things can have significant effect on group size.

[NorcalShooter]

stomp442

Thank you for your reply, and I will check all of those items that you suggested.

I just got off of the phone with Leupold. When I explained to the representitive that I had to adjust the scope 4 to 6 inches windage and 2 to 3 elevation in between days at the range he said it sounds like it needs to be sent in. So no pig hunting the next few weeks. I think I knew this, but was in some denial after wasting close to a few hundred dollars on ammo before changing out the the original mounts. Frankly, that is why I ultimately ended up spending more on the VX3 than I did on the original combo. I wanted to make sure that I would not have to worry about scope problems. I am not mad at Leupold. I am in the the quality control business and understand how it works. I just may have happened to get the piece with the gristle.

stomp442 I did want to ask you more about the 150 to 200 grain bullets range. The first thing I changed on the original combo was the scope mounts. I kept the Prostaff but put on the DNZ Game Reaper. (Which were so easy to mount by the way compared to the Leupold mounts that we had to put on my sons rifle.) After changing out the mounts I used the Match Sierras in the 168 grain again and got it dailed in in short order. Then I began to try to site in the fusion 150s and was all over the place. I gave up after the first box and then began to do more research and began to (perhaps erroneously) get the idea that my barrel did not like 150s. I simutaneous decided to buy a better scope. Maybe I gave up too soon and perhaps should have tried another brand. My hope was that I could have a lighter round for deer and a heavier round for elk and pig.

Have you shot 150s through 200s with actual equal results? I will definately give it another try if there is reasonable hope.

[Maztech89]

Being as its a new gun, the barrel could be pretty rough still and copper fouled a bit. I know you said you cleaned it, but was it a true deep cleaning the get all the **** out, or just a few wet patches to get the powder fouling out. I'd scrub it up good, check all fasteners for torque, barrel clearance, tang floated, and try again. I take it you are not a hand loader?

[NorcalShooter]

I normally give it a good deep cleaning. Always a good brushing with solution and with patches until everything comes out clean. But, I am going to check all of the fasteners. The barrel clearance is new to me and I will check that.

No I am not a hand loader but I am going to start. I want to eliminate all varibles.

[stangfish]

It is not uncommon for a different bullet and different bullet weight as well as particular powder to have a different point of impact especialy in a hunting rifle. Good choice on scopes and rifle.

[jb6.5]

Stangfish is right, different bullets powder even brass will change the way a gun shoots. Also just because someone zeros there scope for 150s doesn't mean the 125s will be high and 180s will be low. Try different brands, you'll get it figured out.

[NorcalShooter]

Thank you all for your suggestions. After considering all of your comments I did about 8 hours of research on Point of Impact and different loads. I found a lot of information of barrel harmonics, nodes, anti-nodes, barrel whip, gun tuning etc. I have gone from discouragement to being completely fascinated. I had no idea that the subject could be so complex and interesting.

Armed with new information I called Leupold back because I realized that I did not tell them that I had changed loads between days at the range and asked their technician if a change in load could result in 4 inches of windage and 2 inches of elevation change and he said absolutely. Prior to your comments my research I found that hard to imagine but it is indeed that case. So am I going to look for some more ammo and start again.

One source of information said that most inexpensive rifles can be eventually be brought to high degrees of accuracy.

I was also surprised to learn that there can be significant POI changes in the same model of rifle right off of the shelf. I am going to try some 165 and 175 hunting rounds if I can find them.

Thanks again, and hopefully all of your help in this post can guide some other newbies

[big honkin jeep]

Their is nearly always a shift in point of impact between not only different bullet weights, charges and brands of ammo even in the same weight but sometimes even with the same brand and weight from box to box if they came from a different lot. I know it's not easy with ammo being scarce right now but you should probably try to get a couple of boxes with the same lot number on em. If they came from the same case of ammo they should have the same lot number. Pick the brand and weight that has showed the best promise for accuracy and go from there.
Or you could always take up a new hobby and start handloading, then all the variables and tuning are up to you.
Good luck

[NorcalShooter]

A bit of an update, I finally found a hunting round that shoots well out of my gun. Federal 165 grain Trophy Copper. Shoots almost as good as the match.

I also did a bed job on it this weekend and when I shot some of the rounds that I had shot previously and the groups seemed a bit tighter. The POI on the 180s was still very different but tighter.

At least I feel like I have something I can hunt with now.

Thanks for all the help.

[Westcliffe01]

Do you know what specific model you got ? Was it a trophy hunter XP with a wooden stock ? So a relatively lightweight gun with a relatively skinny barrel? The 308 Win is not the most powerful round out there, but when combined with a lightweight gun, it can be a pretty good "thumper".

You don't mention what rest system you use when shooting ? Are you using a sandbag system for the front rest with a notch to put the fore end into and then a smaller bag under the rear of the stock to correct elevation ? Do you apply your non trigger hand to the fore end to make sure the butt is making good contact with your shoulder ? There are plenty of options, including the bench rest type front rests, but you need to be stress free prior to shooting else you will never get good groups.

The first bolt action rifle I bought was a Remington 700 "classic" with a sporter barrel and initially I could do no better than 4-5" groups either. It is just a fact that a 12-14lb gun is a lot easier to shoot off the bat because it sucks up the recoil and has less of a tendency to move prior to the bullet leaving the muzzle.

Also consider that factory stocks tend to focus on being cheap first and foremost. Having the barrel free floated certainly makes the behavior more repeatable/consistent. Thats where hand loading is very effective for finding a vibration node that does not open up your groups. a 26" varmint contour barrel would simply shoot a wider range of ammo/loads with good performance, but will still respond to "tuning" loads to get to the point where the bullet holes are touching. You might experiment with a rubber vibration damper that goes on the barrel to help damp some of the vibration. Also remember that a light barrel will heat up fast when shooting about 40 grain of powder per shot, so try to take a second weapon to the range so that you can allow it to cool down. The sporter barrels were meant for 2 shots, not firing off half a box of ammo.

Given your location and profession, take a read at this website: http://www.varmintal.com/alite.htm There is plenty more to read on that site, Al has had a fascinating life but he does seem to be slowing down a bit now...

[NorcalShooter]

It was the trophy hunter XP with the wooden stock. It has a pretty skinny barrel also.

Is there a difference between the trophy hunter XP SA 10 and other SA 10s?

I would not buy the combination again. I would have saved a lot of money and headache in the long run just getting the rifle and then getting a decent scope and good mounts.

I usually use sand bags front and back but seldom feel comfortable. I just don't seem to fit the benches at that range. Although today I used a bi-pod for the first time that I bought last year. That was an improvement. Today was one of the days that I didn't feel as if I was shooting well, but I has staying within one inch groups with the 165 Trophy Coppers. I was taking about 5 mins between shots to let it cool. It does get hot quick.

I first tried some 165 Fusions and they were all over the place--4 and 5 inch groups. I have had the same groups with the Fusion 150s and 180s. Actually a little tighter with the 180s. But I am done with the Fusions.

If I can find some 170s and 175s in these Trophy Coppers I will try them also. I have not tried any Remington loads yet. I originally had hoped to find a good deer load and a good elk load, but now I may just to try to find whatever works the best in between. More than load variations I want consistent accuracy.

I am going to experiment with dampers, and I will also check that website out.

Thank you

[Jason8691]

I had the same thing happen with my 10FP SR. I had it dialed in doing barrel break in with some Winchester white box 147 gr., then I went to burn off some Magtech bullets. Same thing as what you experienced, the Magtechs were all over the place, and 3gr's heavier should not have made that much of a difference in impact points. But, they were anywhere from 3-6 inches low and to the right-turns out the scope had come loose, but even after tightening everything down-those cheap Magtechs would not group for anything. Went back to Winchester, tight groups again. So don't give up, these things are just particular about what you feed them.

[Westcliffe01]

If you search Gunbroker and other places, you might find a Model 10PC (Precision Carbine). It has a 20" barrel with a heavier contour and the stock has an aluminum bedding block. Right now getting anything in 308 except the sporter type rifles is a chore, but I got my 223 in the model 10PC a while ago for $550 new. The heavier barreled model 10's are usually extremely accurate out the box. The model 12's cost more money and are heavier with their 26" barrels, but make for nice shooting guns. Perhaps a little heavy for hiking around the mountains all day... So the model 10's have their place, and are definitely lighter and more handy.

I would question you putting more money into a sporter. It should be easy to sell, since that is what about 90% of hunters seem to buy. Then go and get either a model 10 or a model 12. The model 11 seems to be suffering from extreme cost cutting measures, even on some models that have quite high asking prices, so I would not recommend one of those right now. If you can, go and compare model 10 PC, or the police / LE models to the model 12. Right now Buds and Wideners have the 6.5x284 model with a fluted 24" barrel listed for a little over $700 which seems a really good deal and that is a very good long range cartridge (much better than a 308).