Screwing on the barrel nut - hand tight or 'factory' tight?

[memilanuk]

Hello all,

I&#39;ve been shooting, tearing apart and screwing back together various Savage actions and barrels and such for the last few years, like a lot of folks here. Like others, I&#39;ve had my run-ins with factory barrels that took a liberal soaking in <penetrating fluid of choice - I use Kroil> and either a healthy swipe from a LARGE dead blow (had to buy a bigger one) or a cheater pipe over the barrel nut wrench :o Subsequently... most of my barrels nuts get tightened down til they stop, then a little more push and thats it. I have at times had them come loose - not during firing, but when I had the barrel clamped in wood vise blocks and was trying to rotate the whole barrel/action assembly to level the scope rail; little more grab than I counted on and the action came loose. Turned it back and a couple taps with a flat blade screwdriver and it was all good ;) Most of them have shot pretty well like that.

Then more recently I&#39;ve seen a few &#39;Benchrest&#39; types solemnly state that they believe *at least* 100ft-lbs torque makes the guns shoot better, and how they hoped all their opponents only put their barrels on &#39;hand tight&#39;.

Made me start wondering if mebbe I was leaving some cards on the table.

Whaddya think?

Monte

[ellobo]

Monte,
Finger tight then a little tweek with the nut wrench is all you need. Anything above that isnt going to gain you a thing. Those benchrest guys arnt dealing with what Savage offers, like floating bolt heads etc. Call and ask fred at SSS what he thinks. I doubt he will tell you to tighten the nut like the benchrest guys suggest.

El Lobo

[pdog06]

They musta been the ones that also hired the Gorilla that puts them on at Savage ::) :).

[johnds]

They musta been the ones that also hired the Gorilla that puts them on at Savage ::) :).


I have it on good authority that the factory uses a Gorilla-ett to tighten the barrel nuts.

Go figure,

Johnds

[jc]

I think with the remmy clones they use they figure since it does&#39;nt shoot well I&#39;ll just tighten it some more and fix it. :P

[82boy]

Then more recently I&#39;ve seen a few &#39;Benchrest&#39; types solemnly state that they believe *at least* 100ft-lbs torque makes the guns shoot better, and how they hoped all their opponents only put their barrels on &#39;hand tight&#39;.
Whaddya think?
Monte


Sounds like total BS to me. For one how are they measuring the torque? Anytime you add something to a torque wrench (IE extension, or other apparatus.) it is changing the torque value. I been told that Savage torques there barrels, using a barrel nut wrench attached to the wrench, the only problem is it changes the value of the wrench, so who knows what the actual torque rating is. O by the way majority of the workers at Savage installing the nuts are 100 lbs women. ;)

I see nothing wrong with the way your putting them together this is what I do, but I can&#39;t say I ever had one come loose on me.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Run the nut up snug with your fingers, put the wrench on it then give it a light "rap" with a steel hammer and you&#39;re done. The steel hammer will transfer to the barrel nut better than a dead blow. The "rap" is what does it. Same as removing the nut. Steel against steel works better than a dead blow. Check your headspace and go shooting. ;)

[barm]

I found this for converting wrenches with an extension.

http://www.belknaptools.com/extcalc.asp

[82boy]

I found this for converting wrenches with an extension.

http://www.belknaptools.com/extcalc.asp


Wow that is a neat site.

[sharpshooter]

The reason why some barrel nuts are so tight:
1.The recoil lug is not perfectly flat, there are high and low spots and some amount of "cup". This acts like a split lock washer. Just check the witness marks on a take-off lug.

2. The barrel nut usually has some burrs on the mating side from the serration cuts. This acts like a star lock washer. Just check out the galling on the nut.

3. On blued guns, some will suffer from "salt creep", a condition where not all of the bluing salts are flushed from the tight crevises and thread joints causing that white "gunk" to appear that everyone thinks is a thread lock agent. This stuff is caustic, and will make things that are mated close, "bite".
Savage uses a short barrel nut wrench with a tube for a handle. The torque wrench is inserted into the handle to make for a total length of about 18". The nuts are routinely torqued at 75 ft/lbs. These wrenches are the "clicker" type, so it is possible to get them tighter than 75 ft/lbs if one was in a hurry.
Now just because it is torqued to 75 ft/lbs, doesn&#39;t mean it will break loose at that,see the above.
Torquing a barrel nut and torquing a shouldered barrel are 2 different things. The added nut will make the joint tighter.

[Cycler]

Sounds like total BS to me. For one how are they measuring the torque? Anytime you add something to a torque wrench (IE extension, or other apparatus.) it is changing the torque value. I been told that Savage torques there barrels, using a barrel nut wrench attached to the wrench, the only problem is it changes the value of the wrench, so who knows what the actual torque rating is.
I expect Savage has a couple of engineers who know how to calibrate a torque wrench so the actual geometry is taken into account. It&#39;s physics and mechanics, not magic.

[JCalhoun]

I use the method Nor Cal Mikie mentioned and have not had any trouble. The nut will still be easy enough to remove with proper tools if you need to.

I also suggest cleaning the threads of the barrel and nut and lubing with oil.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

And after you get the headspace set the way you want it, put a piece of masking tape on the barrel, just at the front edge of the nut and another piece on the action. Put a black mark on both and you will be able to tell if it ever moves. Never had one move on me but it doesn&#39;t hurt to check your marks.
And if you leave the nut on the barrel you just broke loose, you&#39;ve only moved it enough to unscrew the barrel. Run it into the next action and you will be real close when you reset the headspace.

[triggerhappy]

I have a Midway wrench and the instructions say that you should use 30-40 ftlbs, and that is what I used on my first (40ftlbs) and it shoots .25 moa to 500yds. So that is what I am using on my next two I am currently building. It seems to be more than enough torque but not so much that I would have trouble getting it back off.

[gearchecker]

I have a 325C, Where do I get a proper barrel nut wrench to fit it?
Will the wrench designed for the 110 fit my old rilfe lug?

GQ

[dogjaw]

I found this for converting wrenches with an extension.

http://www.belknaptools.com/extcalc.asp

If you put the torque wrench handle at a 90 degree angle with the wrench, no conversion is needed. Your at the same torque as if you had a socket on it.

[okie2]

I have a Midway wrench and the instructions say that you should use 30-40 ftlbs, and that is what I used on my first (40ftlbs) and it shoots .25 moa to 500yds. So that is what I am using on my next two I am currently building. It seems to be more than enough torque but not so much that I would have trouble getting it back off.

What caliber and rifle is it that you are shooting 1.25" groups at 500 yards?

[Hammer]

Can&#39;t imagine what advantage there is to over-tightening the barrel or the barrel nut on an action.

Hand tight with a SSS wrench has been good enough.

.

[memilanuk]

Hammer,

For the most part, I tend to agree. I&#39;ve shot a lot of my Savage rifles with barrels loose enough that if I clamp the barrel in a vise and grab the action by hand and yank (I have a wee bit of extra... mass... at my disposal) I can start to loosen it. It stays plenty tight in actual use, though. Where some of this had came up from was an article in Precision Shooting earlier this year where this fellow had a full-on custom switch-barrel varmint gun built for him, and he went on at some length about how wonderful it was to be able to swap barrels out with a snap of the wrist while sitting at the bench. Showed a couple pictures of hm sitting in a recliner doing just that. Anywho, the thread started out with someone going "Does this guy know something we don&#39;t???" or something of that nature, as it appears most BR gunsmiths/shooters seem to be firm believers in torquing the barrel on to a specific minimum value. Discussion ensued, some of it more vigorous than other, etc. Basically the end consensus was that going &#39;hand tight&#39; was okay for casual shooters and &#39;live varmint&#39; shooting but not for honest-to-goodness serious &#39;B&#39;enchrest competition ::)

All the above got me to thinking... while I&#39;ve usually been fairly satisfied with my rifles - both factory stock and otherwise, they&#39;ve never *quite* grouped tight enough to where I&#39;d be willing to go shoot in a BR match, whether it be point-blank score or group, or 600/1000yd stuff. Part of me wondered (wonders) if that might be due to small things being left undone. So... this particular gun I&#39;m working with now consists of a RBLP action trued and timed by SSS, with the Evo 2oz. trigger, 30" Rock 5R 1-7.8" tw barrel in 6 Dasher, McRee stock, NF BR 12-42x scope, etc. The barrel is a no-nut configuration, torqued on to 100ft-lbs. So far... it seems to shoot very, very well. How much of that is the barrel torque, and how much is just good components and it being a Dasher... dunno.

Oh BTW here&#39;s a link (http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59883) to the thread over on benchrest.com. I&#39;m not saying one side is wrong or the other is right, but it might make for some interesting reading.

Monte

[Hammer]

Always interested in the opinions and observations of fellow barrel swappers.

It is important for us to recognize our affliction and seek help. Unfortunately, my speed dial includes the likes of Northlander, Pac-Nor, Shilen, and others who are enablers to our disease.


Have many switch barrel rifles built on several different actions. In addition to Savages, have switch barrel rifles on 98 Mausers, Montana 1999, Remington 700 and 40X, Ruger 77 MKII, Sakos, Weatherby Mark V, and many others. These have been built by a wide variety of gunsmiths.

Have spent time with benchrest Hall of Famer Tony Boyer and watched him switch barrels on rifles that he won national titles with -- as well as many other benchrest competitors.

Have spent time talking with the gunsmith who built the rifle in the Precision Shooting article concerning the hand tight with a quick jerk twist.

Have also spent time discussing the issue with Norm Johnson, who has written many articles in Precision Shooting concerning switch barrel rifles.

Have spent several conversations with Bob Greenleaf, former senior engineer at Savage, discussing the barrel swapping game. He will share several options for the affliction.

Spent time with Skypilotbc who regularly swaps barrels in prairie dog towns between shots -- and then hits the prairie dogs at 800+ yards on the first shot from the replaced barrel.

SharpShooter bribes me well not to mention him in my swap barrel discussions because he likes to be associated with a better class of gun nut. So I won&#39;t mention our conversations, which we have never had.


None of this makes me qualified to have an opinion on the topic.

Though still learning at an unacceptably slow rate, my current thinking is that hand tight -- or hand tight with the assistance of a SSS or similar barrel nut wrench -- is satisfactory for my use.

Overtight just makes life unnecessarily difficult. Don&#39;t see a need for a cheater bar to tighten a barrel or nut.

Besides, I am inherently lazy and I know that barrel will have to come off sometime.


As for observed accuracy... Find it best to shoot one-shot groups at fifteen yards -- far enough out to not show powder burns on the paper -- and report them with the proper vagueness.


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