reloading ..........finding the lands and correct bullet contact

[rcshooter]

I have a savage single shot target action. I like to test for the bullet lands and test for proper sizing and shoulder spacing for my reloads. With a remington style action, You can remove the firing pin from the bolt and place a sized piece of brass in your chamber and feel the bolt close for proper fit.
I do the same thing with my savage.....I made a spring less firing pin to replace my normal one.
This way you can assemble the bolt and close it on a sized round and test for the feel of the chamber.You can also load a round with a seated bullet a bit long and close the bolt. the bolt will push the round forward till the ogive of the bullet touches the landsand pushes the bullet back into the case( for neck sizing only) when you remove the round you can measure the length so that you know how long to make the rounds for that particular bullet and ogive.
It works for me.........

[Salvo]

A chamber cast will give you very accurate information about your chamber, throat, etc..

Brownell's and Midway sell stuff for doing that. It's called "Cerrosafe" if I remember correctly.

Cerrosafe and a six-inch dial caliper for measuring, and you're in business.

[rcshooter]

Thanks..........But...........I find that you need to "feel" just how the brass you are using fits the chamber after fire forming.
The feel is different for each brass manufacturer. I use a 6 mm PPC die that has changeable bushings and just barely touches the shoulder.
I find that Lapua Match brass works the best for me both in 220 russian and .223 rem.
I also like to feel for the exact spot where the bullet that I am using just touches the Lands.Each bullet type and Manufacturer has a slightly different ogive....even the same weight bullets have very different ogives.
also....that throat keeps eroding as you shoot it.........things change after a few hundred rounds or so.
Sometime it doesn't matter how far the bullet jumps but sometimes it is really critical.
Just the way that I learned how to do it I guess............

[stangfish]

Some use a comparitor or a hornady headspace gauge as well as the hornady stoney point gauge. The important thing is to know your case headspace and compare that to your Hornady modified case.

[jhelmuth]

Some use a comparitor or a hornady headspace gauge as well as the hornady stoney point gauge. The important thing is to know your case headspace and compare that to your Hornady modified case.

+1... stang has it correct (and easiest to do IMNSHO). Make sure you know the delta on your case vs your Hornady modified case. I reverify using my micrometer bullet seater set a tad longer and continue to size down a dummy round (which I keep as a sample) until I get the round to chamber without interference. Then compare that to your measurements. They should be extremely close if not the same.

[BLR81]

I have a savage single shot target action. I like to test for the bullet lands and test for proper sizing and shoulder spacing for my reloads. With a remington style action, You can remove the firing pin from the bolt and place a sized piece of brass in your chamber and feel the bolt close for proper fit.
I do the same thing with my savage.....I made a spring less firing pin to replace my normal one.
This way you can assemble the bolt and close it on a sized round and test for the feel of the chamber.You can also load a round with a seated bullet a bit long and close the bolt. the bolt will push the round forward till the ogive of the bullet touches the landsand pushes the bullet back into the case( for neck sizing only) when you remove the round you can measure the length so that you know how long to make the rounds for that particular bullet and ogive.
It works for me.........

What is the purpose of the springless firing pin? Since the firing pin is cocked on extraction, is there that much difference when your inserting a case that you can't tell if the case is head spaced correctly?

[BLR81]

+1... stang has it correct (and easiest to do IMNSHO). Make sure you know the delta on your case vs your Hornady modified case. I reverify using my micrometer bullet seater set a tad longer and continue to size down a dummy round (which I keep as a sample) until I get the round to chamber without interference. Then compare that to your measurements. They should be extremely close if not the same.
I too use the L&L headspace guage. But, I simply find a prefired case that won't seat smoothly, usually a factory ammo case which is within Sammi specs to start with. Once I have a case that won't seat, I use the head space guage to measure the shoulder, then set my die to that case. I then gradually set the die to move the shoulder back in .001 increments and by the time I get to about .003 from where I started, the case chambers smoothly. Of course, I'm working with the 308 family of cartridges which head space off the shoulder.

As far as seating depth, I use a method used by LoneWolfUSMC at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmDi7v530Og The only difference is I have some plastic sleeves and plastic screws that I got from HD. The sleeves are 1" long with a hole down the center that fits my cleaning rod. I put a brass screw into the end of the cleaning rod to give me a flat surface to touch the tip of the bullet. I slide the first sleeve onto the rod, close the bolt and slide the rod into the crown until it touches the bolt face then push the sleeve against the crown and tighten the plastic screw.

I load a dummy round seated very long, close the bolt, insert the 2nd sleeve on the cleaning rod, and insert the rod until it contacts the point of the bullet. Then sliding the 2nd sleeve against the crown and tightening it's screw. The distance between the faces of the to sleeve now gives me my COAL & seating distance to the lands. I usually reseat the dummy round .005 over that measurement and rechamber just of verify.

I probably could do this without the head space guage, but I like to see the changes in the head space and seating depth as I adjust the dies. Also when I know the settings that work with that bullet, I'm able to randomly verify head space and seating depth with the comparator and head space guages when I reload.

[rcshooter]

To me ....yes there is.........Without the pressure of the cocked firing pin, the bolt handle will just drop down by gravity. This is a common practice with a solid bolt like a Remington 700 clone.But because of the way a savage bolt is made you need a pin in it to re-assemble the bolt.the pin goes through the hole in the bolt face holding pin. The only thing is that the savage has a tiny resistance because of the spacer washer between the bolt face and the follower.
I learned with a Kelblys panda action and a tight neck chamber.....this is the best method for me.....

[BLR81]

To me ....yes there is.........Without the pressure of the cocked firing pin, the bolt handle will just drop down by gravity. This is a common practice with a solid bolt like a Remington 700 clone.But because of the way a savage bolt is made you need a pin in it to re-assemble the bolt.the pin goes through the hole in the bolt face holding pin. The only thing is that the savage has a tiny resistance because of the spacer washer between the bolt face and the follower.
I learned with a Kelblys panda action and a tight neck chamber.....this is the best method for me..... Maybe I should know this but this is my first savage (20days old), but is the ejector retracted when the bolt goes into battery? If not isn't the ejector spring giving you a false reading, using the touch method?

[BRIAN G]

This is a very interesting discussion. There seems to be many ways of skinning this cat. What I've been doing is the bullet in the case mouth (not crimped of course) then closing the bolt on the cartridge. That lenghth is then considered the longest and I can work backward from there. Am I missing anything by doing this that could be accomplished with the Stony Point / Hornady gizmo?

[stangfish]

Brian. Consider the force that the bolt is capable of exerting in contrast to the gentle touch of the human hand. It is easy to push a bullet .010 or further with the bolt.

[BRIAN G]

Thanks, good point. I knew there had to be a reason more people don't do it that way.

[rcshooter]

I should have told you before..........I removed my ejector and spring from my bolt.
My panda action's bolt was made without any ejector. I have found that as the ejector spring pushes the spent brass to the side it is possible to put a small dent in the case neck. My 6 MM PPC is a .262 neck and they are quite tender..........my .223 has thicker necks but I do turn them to make them uniform. I neck size only so I want the necks to stay as nice as possible.

[rcshooter]

This is a very interesting discussion. There seems to be many ways of skinning this cat. What I've been doing is the bullet in the case mouth (not crimped of course) then closing the bolt on the cartridge. That lenghth is then considered the longest and I can work backward from there. Am I missing anything by doing this that could be accomplished with the Stony Point / Hornady gizmo?

You are on the right track but ........the ogive changes with each different bullet you use ( also changes slightly in the same lot of bullets).....tools are available to measure each bullet if you want. I like to use the bullet I am currently using to find the start of the lans. If you use a bolt without a firing pin it it you can feel the bullet touch and feel the push back into the case. The lans will also slightly mark the bullet as well. I neck size the brass with a wilson arbor press die and I size just enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place.You can get several inserts for the wilson neck size die.
I test about 4 or 5 times to get the same reading then I mark it down for that bullet.

[stangfish]

How much Neck Tension do you have on the bullet when you are looking for the "lands"?

[BLR81]

This is a very interesting discussion. There seems to be many ways of skinning this cat. What I've been doing is the bullet in the case mouth (not crimped of course) then closing the bolt on the cartridge. That lenghth is then considered the longest and I can work backward from there. Am I missing anything by doing this that could be accomplished with the Stony Point / Hornady gizmo?

As others have said, your way is fine just not as accurate as some others. Since your seating to lands, there is no way to be sure that your didn't seat too deep which could be the case if your head space is too short. The bullet can catch in the lands and be pulled out during extraction if the neck is too loose.

The problem with the Hornady tool is that it uses a Sammi spec case which isn't going to be the exact size of your chamber. The tool allows you to push the case in until the shoulder touches the chamber. Then the rod pushes the bullet out until it touches the lands. When you remove the tool, you insure the bullet is touching the internal rod and measure COAL. But you pushed the case in and not the bolt. If the head space on the tool case is shorter than your sized cases, when the bolt seats the bullet, the ogive on the bullet will end up short of the lands as well. You can modify a fire formed case shot from your rifle to work with the tool which would be more accurate.

[rcshooter]

How much Neck Tension do you have on the bullet when you are looking for the "lands"?

That is a good question. Just enough to hold the bullet from slipping back into the case.
some things to consider ...........lets say you are loading for a .223 bullet
you measure each side of your brass case at the mouth. I use Lapua Match brass and it is thicker than some other brass.
it measures about .0125 on each side. I use a .248 bushing with the numbers up. one of my fired cases measures about .252
across the neck . so when I size it with a .248 bushing it then measures about .2505 not .248............because of spring
back of the brass.When I seat a bullet in the case, I try to push it back against a block of wood by hand. It stays put.
So for me that is the neck tension that is the most accurate.It is also important to brush the inside of the necks to be sure they are clean and smooth.
I use a single shot Savage target action that is left port and right bolt. I load each round by hand and I do not push it into the chamber with the bolt but I use my finger instead so I can get by with a light neck tension.
If you were to use a different action with a mag. and you cycle the rounds into your chamber with the force of the bolt then that may be too loose.
I hope that this helps........I like to use Wilson neck size dies and bushings because they only size the necks and I like using an arbor press. I really like the way the Wilson bullet seater works.

[stangfish]

What if I don"t have a bushing die? That setup sounds expensive. How much does that cost?

[rcshooter]

What if I don"t have a bushing die? That setup sounds expensive. How much does that cost?
I don't know how to do this without one. I suppose you could try to adjust your F/L die to just size the necks but it would not be even pressure............I just looked at my last post again and I wanted to mention that the neck tension I use does allow for the bullet to be pushed back when I close my bolt. The neck tension allows me to get the jam point of the lands and it engraves the bullet just a bit so I can see that it has slight marks in the jacket.My rifle does not like for the bullet to jump.
I used to load each round a few thou long and let the bolt push the bullet into the lands hard but if you don't fire that round and open the bolt the bullet may stick in the lands and pull out.........what a mess with all that powder.......so I stopped using that method.
But it did shoot very well that way.

An arbor press is about $100 new I think Harrels makes the best...I have seen used ones for about half ...the dies are about $50. there are some used ones on benchrest central now for about $35
The way they are made it would be hard to abuse them but they are steel so they can rust....
Wilson makes some that are stainless and have built in mic tops but they are more $.

The bushings are about $15 but you can find used ones as well.

With Lapua brass and my chamber and the loads that I use, I never have to body size or bump back the shoulder but it just depends on how your rifle barrel shoots. My .223 is ok but I have to bump the shoulders of my PPC because I use hotter loads.
For that you still need a regular press and a body die or bump die.
reading and forester make bushing dies that work in regular presses.

[Berniep]

I would like to say that you really dont have to have an arbor press to use the Wilson dies. It nice but for years i used a wood contraption that i built. It was just a lever and with a large wooden dowel hanging from it. Worked fine and i didnt have any concentricity issues. Lately i have been using my drill press with shirt piece of 1inch rod that i faced in the lathe and turned a shank to fit in the chuck.