Mallet extraction

[echo5mike]

Gents,

First post. Joined up to see if you could share your wisdom. Thanks for having me in.

I have a problem with my Model 10 FCP-K in .308.

It shoots and extracts 175 FGMM very well, no issues. My reloads not so much. Horrible accuracy and, as my subject title alludes to, will not extract/eject reloaded once fired full length sized Federal brass 90% of the time with out the use of a rubber mallet.

Doing due diligence on my reloads. Tumble, FL size, tumble again, clean pockets, trim (2.005) chamfer, debur, prime w/ federal 210's, fill w/ IMR 4064 (41 to 43 gr in .5 increments)-(the only 43 I shot required a cleaning rod to dislodge, SAMMI high side is 45gr, btw ogive hitting at 2.209 if that means anything to anyone) and seat 175 SMK's to 2.80 +/- .010 and .020.

I read a previous post where the gent had to send his rifle back to Savage to have the chamber polished and that, as far the thread went, solved his problem.

Just wondering if any one else had an opinion or experience in resolving this issue this side of a UPS box.

Thank you for your consideration.

[eddiesindian]

My Savage has a tight chamber as well (not a bad thing)
During my load development, I quickly realized my chamber was infact a "tight"
Once i realized what i was up against and wasnt all that content using a "mallet"...or a block of wood that of which was the only thing handy....I stop,d all R&D on my reloads and fired a factory load. took that case and mic,d it in 3 different positions. Then I mic,d my resized brass and sure enuff....my resizing die wasnt sizing them down to my Savage,s chamber. Making sure my dies were set up correctly and so on, I realized I either needed a match set of dies or a Full Lenght, small base. Id been using my Lee full lenght die that of which my Savage didnt care for so I simply set up my RCBS Full lenght Small base die and had at it....problem solv.d I look,d inside my chamber using a high quality high dif. snap on bore scope and she,s clean as a whistl....just a tight chamber that of which id rather have. I used the rcbs small base full length die and am smiling from ear to ear. I even tried using my collet die once I fired those up to see if id gain any accuracy but I didnt. I also found out that firing the collet sized brass was getting abit tight at extraction after about 3 firings and had to be resized again with the rcbs. I eventually gave up on the collet and have kept using the rcbs small base full lenght with no issues...non what so ever.
Buddy of mine purchased a model 10 fcp-sr and asked me what he need,d...I told him exactly what Im telling you......he,s never had problem with extractions...course...curiousity got the better of him and he too resized using his lee standard full lenght die and came to the same conclusion.....
Hope this helps......................good luck

[squirrelsniper]

Since factory ammo is just fine, it sounds like it could be a load that's simply too hot for a given chamber and brass.

I've had a lot of Savages with fairly tight chambers, which is good, but you run into pressure issues at lower charge weights. In one of my 308's, no matter the load combination, the max charge weight for that rifle is always 1-1.5gr lower than what is common to other rifles using the very same components. The velocity gets up there even with the lower charge weight though, as velocity and pressure go hand in hand.

Also, it's been my experience that the Fed GM brass is somewhat heavy and is typically very soft. The brass weight typically reduces the needed powder charge a bit while the softness of the brass causes pressure signs to show up quickly. While I love the FGMM ammo, the brass isn't very good after the initial firing and is pretty much junk after one reload.

I recommend trying either Winchester or Lapua (if you can handle the price) brass and seeing what happens. If you want to keep using the same components, try reducing the powder charge and using a longer OAL.

[snowgetter1]

rcbs small base full length die as mentioned should do the trick.

[echo5mike]

Well gentlemen I am currently in search of an RCBS small base FL die. Thank you for the advice!

And to Squirrel Sniper, find me ANY brass and I'll buy it! :)

One quick note. I mentioned above my readings at the ogive w/ a Hornady OAL gauge/comparator is 2.209. Can anyone give me a frame of reference on their firearm to compare this too? Obviously the chamber is tight,(or short?)-(or both?) so I just thought I'd through it out there for anyone who has measured theirs.

I'm still a little green on this stuff fellas (I guess you could call this my "second rodeo") and am thirsty for education so any and all are welcomed.

One more thing I have to mention: I called a manufacturer today voicing my issue (which one is not relevant) and brought up the small base FL die you all where kind enough to educate me on and the guy goes semi bonkers on the "don't listen to the internet stuff".

If could have got a word in edgewise, I would have told him I had never even HEARD of a freekin small base sizer and if it were not for the forum I posted on I still would not have! SHEESH!!

'Not saying this will fix my problem, but ****, for 30 bucks I'll give a try.

Rant over.

Thanks guys.

[eddiesindian]

If you have any mechanical expierence, then Id suggest you mic your factory fired brass and compare it to your rezised brass. Mic,s dont lie....when in dought....mic-it.
If your not mechanically inclined then go with the small base/full lenght die, set it up correctly as per instructions. Usually...you,ll have about .002 difference (smaller) at the base of your case.
The hottest I run my loads is running a 150gr SMK with 45.5grs of RL-15 going 2800fps (4200ft elev)...those rds require a slightly harder tug on extraction at the bolt but never the use of mechanical force other than my hand.
From my expierence on free bore. Ive found that my Savage doesnt have much free bore. I went down the R&D road with setting my OAL 10 yrs ago at different lenghts to see if Id gain any accuracy uisng Stoney Point depth gauges and so on and came down to the conclusion that no apparant increase of consitancy or accuracy was gained so from that point on, I set my seating die at standard OAL and am still getting 1/4 patterns @ a 100.
Now your issues with accuracy IMO is possible due to a lack of load development thru ladder test and such. Course theres the obviuos things that need to be ck,d like your stock to reciever fit, but from what your saying, Id tend to think its you just not finding your barrels sweet spot. Once you do....you,ll know it...and when you do....chrono those loads. It wouldnt suprise me if you find that the speeds are hovering around 2600 fps...give or take a few fps.
Hope this helps.....Good luck

[echo5mike]

Thank you eddiesindian for you detailed response. I will in fact follow your advice.

[eddiesindian]

Your very welcome Mike. I hope you can resolve your concerns without spending too much money. Present times arent fairing very well on pricing of components.
Anybody doing R&D on load development for a specific firearm is presently paying the cost...myself included

[snowgetter1]

I had a similar problem with my 30 Bellm, a 7mm BR necked up to 30cal and shortened to 1.4", with hot loads. I still have not purchased a small base 308 die because I discovered the shoulder was not being bumped back with the full lenght die and the base of the brass was not being sized. As a quick fix I filed off the top of a shell holder until everything would chamber fine. It worked and I am no expert, but I did end up with a stuck case in the die that ripped out of the filed down shell holder. The second shell holder I did not file down as much.

I am not saying this is your problem because it does sound like you just need a small base die. But, just relaying some experience.

As far as internet info. I have learned more from this sight alone than anywhere. All other info comes from my father who has reloaded for years but he never really got into technical accuracy or wildcats.

[fgw_in_fla]

I had a similar problem with my 30 Bellm, a 7mm BR necked up to 30cal and shortened to 1.4", with hot loads. I still have not purchased a small base 308 die because I discovered the shoulder was not being bumped back with the full lenght die and the base of the brass was not being sized. As a quick fix I filed off the top of a shell holder until everything would chamber fine. It worked and I am no expert, but I did end up with a stuck case in the die that ripped out of the filed down shell holder. The second shell holder I did not file down as much.

I am not saying this is your problem because it does sound like you just need a small base die. But, just relaying some experience.

As far as internet info. I have learned more from this sight alone than anywhere. All other info comes from my father who has reloaded for years but he never really got into technical accuracy or wildcats.


I had a similar experience with a Lee .243 FS die. I adjusted the die as close to the shellholder as it would go & the brass was still too long. I bought a second .243 Lee FS die & it worked as it should. After grinding about .007" off a shellholder, the "defective" .243 die worked.
I ended up sending it back to Lee in which they sent me a replacement. I guess every once in a while the QC guy forgets to bring his eyeglasses...

[echo5mike]

Thanks to all for responses.

Small base die due in Friday from Midway. Had to purchase w/ seating die (can always use a third one I guess) to push the cost to 41.00 plus shipping.

But if it solves my problem it was money well spent. I'll make up some rounds for the following weekend and let you guys know how it behaves.

If it fixes my issues that would be great. If not, I'll see ya'll in the Aftermarket Barrel forum :)

Thanks again gents.

[Deerhunter 28]

Get a Hornady Headspace Gauge.
Sinclair has a higher version.
Both will work to bump the case .002.


PSE EVO 60 Lbs.
Blacked out

[echo5mike]

Well the small based die worked! Not a hint of a sticky bolt what so ever. BIG TIME thanks to y'all for the input (E"s I and SG1 nailed it).
Shot six 5 shot groups working up from 41 gr to 42.3 of IMR 4064 using 175 SMK's w/ an OAL of 2.80.

Accuracy was best w/ the 41gr @ .698" grouping going between 2599 and 2637 FPS and 41.7gr @ .76" grouping going between 2705 and 2774 FPS (seems like and awful big spread).

Everything else (41.3, 41.5, 42gr) was just over an inch. Well that's not quite accurate, the 42gr looked as if I had loaded bird shot. I did not even to bother to measure the "group" and my velocities were from 2800 to 2852fps. I still was not getting pressure signs other than a hint of flat primers and I figured I'd better not push the 42.3's into 2900 fps territory.

I just want to say thanks to all again!

Still looking for tighter groups though. Will peruse the forum for more valuable information.

[eddiesindian]

glad to hear that mike. ive used 4064 before and liked the results but didnt like working with it. been using rl-15 with great results but thats ahole different story.
if you dont plan on tossing your rds out to distance then might i suggest going even lighter on the powder charge?
is your barrel a 24" 1/10tw?

[echo5mike]

Yes it is a 24" 1:10. And I'm fortunate enough that my Gun Club has a range out to 1k. So yes I do want to go "out to distance". I have shot FGMM 7.62x51 (175gr) with success at this distance but of course want to get greater accuracy and affordability (and availability) with hand loads. Any advice is welcome on achieving this goal. I should probably search the archives before I start a new thread in that endeavor but any quick suggestions are appreciated

BTW.
My shooting buddy is not high on rl-15 because of temperature sensitivity. Thoughts?

[snowgetter1]

Glad to hear the small base die worked out for you.

[eddiesindian]

Yes it is a 24" 1:10. And I'm fortunate enough that my Gun Club has a range out to 1k. So yes I do want to go "out to distance". I have shot FGMM 7.62x51 (175gr) with success at this distance but of course want to get greater accuracy and affordability (and availability) with hand loads. Any advice is welcome on achieving this goal. I should probably search the archives before I start a new thread in that endeavor but any quick suggestions are appreciated

BTW.
My shooting buddy is not high on rl-15 because of temperature sensitivity. Thoughts?

My shooting partners Savage is a 24" 1-10 and he,s tossing rds out to 1K with ease and accuracy. he,s load is a 168smk and rl-15 though...if Im not mistaken, his load development came up with 42.7gr of rl-15
I run rl-15 as well and am extremely happy with it.
I live in southwest texas where the summers are 100-110 and winter 20-30dg...is there and "extreme" change in burn rate?....no...is there a "slight" change in burnt rate....yes.
Ive tossed rds out to 1K in 30dg temps because I wanted to see for myself what the difference in outcome would be and I evaluated that my POI was about 5-6 low which only comes out to 2clicks on my scope.
so with that said, IMO, its not an issue. Im not leaving my rds out in the hot sun just blistereing away nor Im atop a mountain in Afg. doing sniper patrol.
I know that with the 175,s you,ll defently need to 20 MOA base.
I use 150smk for the sake of less recoil/increased speed and am still hitting steels out to 1K. Im able to hit a 8"x6" plate with a 15-20mph cross wind, course it takes some thinking and head scraching to play the wind but when I smack that small plate, Im smiling from ear to ear.
I have "however" worked with 175,s and Varget but on my gas gun and have been able to hit bigger steels out to 1K. not as consistant and accurate as the Savage, but hits none the less.
Ive worked with 4062 before but It sure was a chore metering...worse than Varget. I came up with good results with 4062 but I didnt have alot on hand, enuff to really start working ,loads up.

[echo5mike]

Thanks for the RL-15 info. I will give it a go. It's fixin to get hot and stay hot for a good while down here in Florida so temp flux should not be an issue any time soon.

I take it your buddy does not encounter the destabilization w/ 168 smk's out at distance (past 600 or so)? That's why I have used the 175's because of info on the less than desirable results going out to 1k yards with the 168 smk.

Magpul runs a long distance class that does not recommend using these bullets just for this reason. It would be interesting to find some info on results leading to the contrary.

And yes, I'm already sporting a 20 MOA base w/ a Vortex Razor HD atop.

Thanks for all your efforts in helping me narrow this stuff down.

[eddiesindian]

The gent I speak of that owns a Savage like your twist and lenght is a retired Marine, so to say he,s hard headed is an understatment lololo. hell of a nice guy once you get to know him and Ive been shooting with him for the past 20 yrs.

His uses 168,s exclusively. he used to use 4895 for yrs but oppted on RL-15 about 3 yrs ago. He ran out of his 8lb jug of 4895 and picked up a 1 lb-er to hold him over. In doing so, he found out that the burn rate changed significantly, which in turn pist him off and believe you me, ya dont wanna piss off this ret. marine....so he gave RL-15 a go.

He did his extensive load development and found his barrels sweet spot in relation to the new propellant. He,s an older salty dog who doesnt believe anything if he doesnt see it for himself. He doesnt go for hear say but more factual (im the same way)....so...In true inquisitive fashion, he put a 4X8 sheet of sheet rock out to 1K, painted a dot in the center, and had at it. he prefers being alone while doing his R&D, thats why he used the sheet rock....holes dont lie....sure enuff..he made sure his ballistics were correct and.....clean perfectly round holes thru the sheet rock withy no signs of the projectile becomming unstable or varying from point of direction.
Our altitude where we shoot at is @ 4200-4400ft. The air is dry most of the time here. Less water in the air and higher elevation Im sure is lending itself for higher speeds.
I too have seen tuitorials of the 168 becomming unstable during transonic. They went on to explain what transonic means in relation to the flight of the projectile etc.etc.etc... but never really showed evidence of the occurance. Not saying it doesnt happen, but I just havent seen it at this elevation.
As I mentioned before, he,s running 42.7. he told me what the speed was but cant remember.
My loads are for my 24" 1-11.25 twist running a 150smk which wont help you..............but..... I will say this. I recently had to change lot# of rl-15 and was very pleased to see that my speeds stayed pretty much the same. (for me) rl-15 is showing closer numbers while clocking during load development.

[echo5mike]

It sure would be interesting to know what velocities he is getting. But it sure seems as though those atmospherics' would add to a bullet's ability to stay straight and fast longer. Of course I'm in central Florida where the humidity is near 100% and elevation is somewhere between zero and 50' but I will use the example you've cited as at least a starting point for my next work-up.

BTW. Understand about hard headed Marines. I wore the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor for a number of years myself.